Lead cast reloads and chronograph velocities for 9x19, 380 acp and 38 spl/357 mag

[Reloader of Southamerica]

Hi,

I reloaded today again my 9x19 rounds and chronographed it.

The gun used is the Taurus PT 92 AFS and I love more and more the gun although it had at beginning a bit a Problem of Shooting way to much to the right. Seems some reloading tweaks fixed that more or less. More powder and POI started to wander to the left to about POA.

I use VV N330 type powder by Volumen tapped and heaped the 0.5 cc Lee powder dipper. I use the Lee 124 grain lead cast (high Zinc Content) TC bullet.
This gave me today an velocity of 1003 fps for 277 ft-lbs of energy (Caldwell Chronograph). That is low for an 9mm Luger but the gun cycles mostly reliable with 945 fps (238 ft-lbs 9mm Makarov energy Levels) as well.
This 277 ft-lbs energy approaches almost the low power 9x19 factory rounds availlable.

I would not load any more powder in the case since the OAL of the round is 1.038" which is very short and the load is slightly compressed.
Since the primers Show a flat Surface (signs of cratering started) I plan to back up a bit the powder Charge by not tapping anymore the powder dipper.

Same velocity (1003 fps) I get with my SAA Heritage Pietta model 1873 357 mag 5.5" Revolver using the Lee 148 grain Wadcutter lead round for about 331 ft-lbs. Flat primers but no cratering.
My Beretta Pico with it's 2.7" Barrel gets with the 102 grain Lee lead RN an velocity of 862 fps for 168 ft-lbs. Shows a bit flat primers and light cratering starting.

What do you guys say? Any opinions?

 

[horsey300]

Hi,

I reloaded today again my 9x19 rounds and chronographed it.

The gun used is the Taurus PT 92 AFS and I love more and more the gun although it had at beginning a bit a Problem of Shooting way to much to the right. Seems some reloading tweaks fixed that more or less. More powder and POI started to wander to the left to about POA.

I use VV N330 type powder by Volumen tapped and heaped the 0.5 cc Lee powder dipper. I use the Lee 124 grain lead cast (high Zinc Content) TC bullet.
This gave me today an velocity of 1003 fps for 277 ft-lbs of energy (Caldwell Chronograph). That is low for an 9mm Luger but the gun cycles mostly reliable with 945 fps (238 ft-lbs 9mm Makarov energy Levels) as well.
This 277 ft-lbs energy approaches almost the low power 9x19 factory rounds availlable.

I would not load any more powder in the case since the OAL of the round is 1.038" which is very short and the load is slightly compressed.
Since the primers Show a flat Surface (signs of cratering started) I plan to back up a bit the powder Charge by not tapping anymore the powder dipper.

Same velocity (1003 fps) I get with my SAA Heritage Pietta model 1873 357 mag 5.5" Revolver using the Lee 148 grain Wadcutter lead round for about 331 ft-lbs. Flat primers but no cratering.
My Beretta Pico with it's 2.7" Barrel gets with the 102 grain Lee lead RN an velocity of 862 fps for 168 ft-lbs. Shows a bit flat primers and light cratering starting.

What do you guys say? Any opinions?

I personally avoid the flat primers and would back off a bit, but that's just me.

 

[Reloader of Southamerica]

In the 380 acp I will back off a bit since the Beretta Pico is such an small pistol. But this is a carry gun and so the reloads should have some decent energies as well (below 150 ft-lbs real life energy I would not want in an CCW but rather would want Approach the 170's ft-lbs energy Levels as I do from this short 2.7' Barrel. From factory Aguila ammo I get 162 ft-lbs energy real life from this Barrel in Opposition to the nominal 188 ft-lbs stated on their Webpage.
For an CCW there should be some ooompf!
I wonder if 380 acp is normally easier flattening the primers and cratering since that happened with factory ammo as well (Aguila). Weaker 380 acp factory ammo though did not crater.

But for the 9x19 I not even Approach normal 9x19 energy Levels and velocities.
The 38 spl/357 mag is a specialty reload since the 148 grain Wadcutter sits below flush the case mouth as such the case has exactly as much powder space than has an 9x19 round.
I push the loads a bit since I wanna get some decent velocities from the reloads

 

[Dudedog]

Welcome to THR, lots of great people here.

.5cc Lee scoop but what is the weight of the powder charge? THis is the 9mm load correct?
Powder type/charge for the other two loads? Need more info please.

 

[FROGO207]

Welcome to the forum as well.
Using a high zinc content will produce a lighter weight than stated on the mold and harder bullet as well. This may be producing an over pressure load with what would normally be a safe amount of propellant using a mostly lead bullet. I do not use any zinc in my bullets to keep the as cast weight close to the design weight as possible. Tin (as in lead free solder for plumbing) makes an excellent hardener and keeps the weight close to pure lead equivalents and helps with mold fill. What is the actual weight of your bullet as cast? At any rate I try to get near max fill with no compression in a 9MM load. Using the bullets you are, a different propellant might work at lowering pressures to a safe level. IMHO shooting a load that does this to your primers can only shorten the life of the gun in the long run. I would try casting some mostly lead bullets and try those to see if you still get flat primers. I bet they are OK then.

 

[horsey300]

In the 380 acp I will back off a bit since the Beretta Pico is such an small pistol. But this is a carry gun and so the reloads should have some decent energies as well (below 150 ft-lbs real life energy I would not want in an CCW but rather would want Approach the 170's ft-lbs energy Levels as I do from this short 2.7' Barrel. From factory Aguila ammo I get 162 ft-lbs energy real life from this Barrel in Opposition to the nominal 188 ft-lbs stated on their Webpage.
For an CCW there should be some ooompf!
I wonder if 380 acp is normally easier flattening the primers and cratering since that happened with factory ammo as well (Aguila). Weaker 380 acp factory ammo though did not crater.

But for the 9x19 I not even Approach normal 9x19 energy Levels and velocities.
The 38 spl/357 mag is a specialty reload since the 148 grain Wadcutter sits below flush the case mouth as such the case has exactly as much powder space than has an 9x19 round.
I push the loads a bit since I wanna get some decent velocities from the reloads

Experiment with other powders that will get you the velocities without the pressure, something is wrong here. You're going to eventually damage something, and I do hope it isn't you that gets hurt. If your concern for the carry load is for defense, the last thing you'll want is to worry about taking fire from your own weapon.

 

[Reloader of Southamerica]

Using a high zinc content will produce a lighter weight than stated on the mold and harder bullet as well. This may be producing an over pressure load with what would normally be a safe amount of propellant using a mostly lead bullet. I do not use any zinc in my bullets to keep the as cast weight close to the design weight as possible. Tin (as in lead free solder for plumbing) makes an excellent hardener and keeps the weight close to pure lead equivalents and helps with mold fill. What is the actual weight of your bullet as cast? At any rate I try to get near max fill with no compression in a 9MM load. Using the bullets you are, a different propellant might work at lowering pressures to a safe level. IMHO shooting a load that does this to your primers can only shorten the life of the gun in the long run. I would try casting some mostly lead bullets and try those to see if you still get flat primers. I bet they are OK then.

No I can not use other powder till date then scavenge 12 ga shotshell powder for reloading 9x19, 380 acp, 38 spl/357 mag.
It is how it is here in Southamerica.
However by now the governement has allowed LGS to Import gun powder from the USA which will arrive by Christmas. So be happy with me!
The shotshell powder I scavenge now is about the same as VV N330 powder as per manufacturer was stated to me (is VV N330 or equivalent burn rate).
So to max out with as Little powder (powder is scarce) the velocity I opted to seat deeper the bullet (less OAL) so it rises pressure and thus rising velocity and energy to the max potential. That means basically all my bullets sit on top of the powder Charge with no empty airspace between bullet and powder Charge. Flat primers and cratering are my indicators of overpressure.

My cast bullets contain Zn but are allways right on the nominal Lee weight or above. I was wondering as well why my bullets are heavier than the Lee stated number as I am sure there are many Zn marked wheel wheights in my WW at least 1/4 of the total amount of WW are Zinc. The other remaining 3/4 are WW lead. it's a mysterious to me as well.
Why overpressure?
Harder bullets may rise more pressure than pure lead but an lighter weight bullet will LOWER pressure and not rise it. I find the Zn bullets an very good material for non leading hard penetrating bullets. It's about 3/4 lead and 1/4 Zn what I am casting. So the wrinkles on the bullets are allways present indicating Zn but I never got ever any leading. Nor are the Zn bullets that brittle (some shatter but then the Zn Content was much higher and really badly cast bullets due to high Zn Content).
I try to avoid as well compression but yet have sitting the bullet right on top of the powder Charge by regulating the seating depth (OAL).

I am not so much worried about the flat primers (cratering is indeed not acceptable and that has started only when I started reloading 380 acp. In fact I realise 380 acp has a tendency to naturally cratering and easily flattens primers) since all my loads are at the Point the semi Auto pistol cycles reliably and yet has a good oooompf!

 

[LiveLife]

Taurus PT 92 AFS ... Lee 124 grain lead cast (high Zinc Content) TC bullet ... 1003 fps ... OAL of the round is 1.038" which is very short and the load is slightly compressed.

... primers Show a flat Surface (signs of cratering started) I plan to back up a bit the powder Charge

First, slug your barrel to determine the groove-to-groove diameter. Many factory barrels are oversized and known to measure .356"-.358"+.

Second, what is the sizing of the bullet? .355" or .356"?

If your barrel is oversized and sizing of the bullet is undersized for the barrel, low muzzle velocities you are measuring on the chrono may be from gas leakage. If this is the case and you are compressing the powder charge, you may need to use larger sized bullets to increase muzzle velocity which will allow you to decrease powder charge.

 

[LiveLife]

No I can not use other powder till date then scavenge 12 ga shotshell powder for reloading 9x19, 380 acp, 38 spl/357 mag.

It is how it is here in Southamerica.

We shared your pain during Obama years that resulted in the "Great Component Shortage" and had to use whatever powder we could get. I tested shotgun powders like Red Dot, Promo and Green Dot during the shortage and have come to like Red Dot/Promo so much that I currently use Promo as my designated powder for 9mm/45ACP plinking loads.

However by now the governement has allowed LGS to Import gun powder from the USA which will arrive by Christmas. So be happy with me!

Great!

 

[Dudedog]

Sorry to hear about not having access to powder that makes it tough.
Get what you can get and afford when you have a chance. Lots of powders will work in 9mm.

You probably know this but the same burn speed as N330 does not mean the same charge weight, or the same volume taken up by the same charge weight.
I don't have a VMD # for N330 but working backwards from data in the Lee manual a scoop of size x cc
.3 cc = 2.8gr
.5 cc = 4.6gr
.7 cc = 6.5gr
so that would give me a VMD of about .109
VMD * gr = cc
.109 * 4.6 = .501gr for example
Just because a powder has the same burn rate as N330 or even for that matter identical charge weights that does not mean it will have the same VMD,
Which is to say that a .5 cc scoop will not weigh the same.
For example on one burn rate chart N330 is listed as #35 and Powerpistol is listed as #34. So very close burn rate wise, however the VMD for Powerpistol is about .089
(VMDs can vary lot to lot a bit, but just for the sake of my point lets take the VMDs I am using as close to what the powder VMD really is)
So PP has about the same burn rate as N330 but because it is denser (VMD of about .089) a .5 cc scoop will weight close to 5.7gr. The same scoop of N330 would weigh about 4.6 gr. Close to a 1.1 gr difference.
.5 cc scoop / .089 (VMD) = 5.7gr (charge weight)
Again you may know this so I apologize if you do.
The reason I am listing all this is I just want you to be safe.
If it is an unknown powder with the "same" burn speed as N330 and you don't know the recommended charge weight or how much a .5cc scoop of the powder weighs you could be reaching dangerous pressures..

Your vels seem in a reasonable and if you have to deal with an unknown powder you just do.
I would consider getting some kind of a scale however. I don't know what is available where you are but Amazon (don't know if you can Amazon where you are) has the little GEM20 scales for about $20 US
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=GEM20.

I understand powder may be scarce but if it was me I would change my OAL to be just long enough to not have to compress the powder.

I don't know how much harder the ZInc is making your bullets but sometimes if your bore is slightly oversize a softer bullet will seal better and give you more velocity due to less gas leakage.
Hope you get everything worked out.
Be careful.

 

[Tcruse]

Understand that many powders have changed manufacture locations and affected the "volume" vs "weight" calculation. The ones that have received the most press are the ones that are now made at St Marks in Canada. The charge when based on "weight" is unchanged, but the volume is somewhat smaller to get the same charge. So, depending on lot number using a "scope" and not a scale is not good practice.