Lead fouling in 9mm barrel (pics)

[rjbishop]

All,

I have just started casting my own bullets. After a bit of practice, I was finally able to turn out near 100% keepers of 124gr Lee TC out of a 6 cavity mold. The mold was turning out slightly oversize and out-of-round bullets, so I sized them to .3563 and tumble lubed them with Lee Liquid Alox. Let the bullets 'dry' for two days before loading- they were no longer tacky.

I shot them in a Ruger SR9, that was broken in with about 700 rounds of quality FMJ bullets. I followed this with a thorough cleaning of the barrel. No problems with these cartridges functioning in the Ruger- it eats everything I feed it. BUT- I believe I'm getting more leading that I should.

The alloy is very close to Lyman #2, with a BHN of around 15 or 16. I loaded the rounds with 4.2gr of Winchester WSF, and the chronograph showed I was getting average speed of 989fps, ES of 30, and Std. Dev of 10 (wow... that surprised me). That was over a 10 shot string, after breaking in the barrel with 15 rounds first. I was concerned that I had to put my COL at 1.065, due to the last micro groove on the Lee bullet being quite near the shoulder of the bullet. I usually run XTPs at 1.085, but I've never had to put a bullet this deep in the case (this bullet is the same OAL as a Hornady 115 FMJ.)

Here's a typical as-cast bullet- no resizing yet:




Now for the ugly- here's the pics. This is the barrel after shooting 200 rounds of these bullets over an afternoon of shooting:













Any thoughts how to improve the leading situation? I may move up to .357 or so on the sizing- but have not yet slugged the barrel (don't have a way to do that yet).

Is this considered bad, medium, low, or normal lead fouling for 9mm?

Thanks!

 

[armoredman]

That's a lot worse than mine, but nicely cast bullet. I use the Lee round nose same size, and mine drops oversize at .360, so I size it for both 38 and 9mm. I use straight wheel weight lead, and never get that bad. Get a chore boy copper pad, cut a small piece of it off, and use that to scrub the bore. Then go to castboolits.gunloads.com for lots of good info.

 

[evan price]

I can't tell if that leading is at the chamber or muzzle. On second look it appears to be at the muzzle end, which is usually a symptom of lubrication failure.

I don't know if you are diluting the ALOX or not; but you might want to try a double coating.

You ARE lubricating after you resize the bullets, right? The sizing process can remove a lot of the ALOX and leave you bullets with insufficient lube.

Leading like that at the chamber end is usually indicative of undersized bullets or too hard of alloy.

If you have lead like that at both ends, you could have both things working against you.

 

[rjbishop]

I think the leading is fairly consistent from chamber to muzzle- perhaps a bit heavier towards the chamber end (it starts the peeling about an inch down the bore).

Didn't dilute the Alox- however I did warm the bottle up in hot water. It left a slightly thinner coating compared to not heating (which I heard lighter is better in handguns).

I also did not lube before sizing- only afterwards. One thing I do wonder about- I did a VERY light spray of RCBS Case Lube on the bullets before resizing- I wonder if this left a "film" on the bullet that prevented the Alox from sticking properly? It didn't seem to fill in the micro-lube grooves as well as I would have expected. Perhaps the Alox was being stripped away from the bullet as the hot gasses hit it?

It did seem this alloy may only be slightly harder than WW. I can scratch the bullets with a sharp edge of a fingernail.

 

[evan price]

You don't want to spray the case lube on the bullets. It will prevent the ALOX from sticking. First thing, as cast, lube them with ALOX. Then resize. Then lube them again. ALOX sticks to itself better than the case lube.

Probably outght to slug your barrel to see what size you should be sizing down to. I like .357" in most of my nines (or .3565" or whatever is close).

 

[armoredman]

Hmm, I have always used One Shot on bullets before sizing, then a nice coat of LLA after sizing. Hmm.

 

[jcwit]

I may move up to .357 or so on the sizing- but have not yet slugged the barrel (don't have a way to do that yet).

Slug the barrel with one of your bullets, if that is not big enough pinch one in a vise makind is slightly larger and try that. Should be no big deal with a lead bullet.

Another way isto use some oversized lead balls used for muzzleloading.

 

[Walkalong]

evan price is on the right track here. Follow his advise.

 

[243winxb]

Your lube is not working, bullets might be undersize for groove diameter. You need a 19 BHN with 2 to 4% Tin.

I wonder if this left a "film" on the bullet that prevented the Alox from sticking properly?

Could be. Your tumble lubed bullets should have a brown color to them if lubed correctly. At least my Xlox copy does.

Liquid Alox application

Best results in applying liquid alox are when the alox is heated before applying, or thinned with paint thinner. This makes it flow more easily, and results in a more even coat. One technique is to boil water and pour it into a coffee mug, and then drop the bottle of liquid alox into the mug for about five minutes.

Place your freshly cast bullets into something about the size of a Cool Whip bowl and drop a few drops of liquid Alox on the bullets. Mix the bullets around until they are all coated. Lay the freshly coated bullets on some wax paper to dry. Liquid alox will usually dry enough overnight to reload the next day, depending upon the humidity. Tacky bullets can be dusted with powdered graphite.

If you subscribe to the "more is better" line of thought, your coated bullets may never dry. Don't go for a "golden" color but rather just a "LIGHT VARNISH". If you discover that your bullets are sticky the next day, you can get by with using a little less the next time. Keep reducing until the "stickiness" is gone by the next day.

If you are sizing your cast bullets, it is necessary to lube them first. Because the sizer will remove some of the surface of a larger diameter bullet, you may need to re-lubricate the bullets after they have been sized.

Many of our bullets are of the "TL" or Tumble Lube design. These bullets have many shallow grooves that are perfect for allowing Liquid Alox to adhere to a great amount of surface. It has been reported that the accuracy of these bullet

1 tea spoon to 8 lbs of 45acp bullets works for me, after the container is coated. Over all, way to messy, i will keep using my Lyman 450.

 

[fireman 9731]

how well did they shoot?

 

[putteral]

Wow! I cast the same boolit with water quenched wheel weights and also tumble lube with LLA. Size to .356 and load 5.8 grs of either AA #5 or Power Pistol and never get any leading in my KP 95, PT 92 or my PT111 Mill Pro. I do seat mine to the second band. It gives me better accruacy.1.113 is my OAL

 

[Cloudpeak]

Cast some pure lead bullets and slug the bore. Stick on wheel weights are pretty soft lead and work for this. Some say that dead soft fishing sinkers work well for this, as well.

My guess is that if you size to .357" to maybe even .358" your problems may lessen. You'll know more after you slug your bore.

The more cast bullets you shoot, the smoother the bore will become and the less leading you will have. Cleanup will be easier as time goes buy, as well.

The advice on some "ChoreBoy" copper strands wrapped around a brass brush is a good one. I use it dry.

I've sprayed thousands of 9mm and 45 cal bullets with "OneShot" for sizing and then tumbled with LLA/Alox and have very little crud in the bore on any of my pistols.

I size to .357-.3575" for 9mm. I use LLA/XLOX and have shot 30,000 rounds plus in 9 and 45 and seem to get along fine.

 

[Larry Burchfield]

Bullets

You might try adding some tin to your mixture to make the mold fill out better. The water hardening will help a lot. Be sure to use Ice water. Also keep your velocity's below 1000fps. If you shoot over 1000fps you need to use a gas check style bullet
Larru Burchfield
SEABEES/RVN/67/68/69
DAV

 

[Walkalong]

1200+ FPS in 9MM without leading is easily done with the right diameter (.001 to .002 over bore diameter) and hardness. (not too soft, yet not too hard either) No special tricks needed. A good lube is a big help. I would quit the RCBS case lube before applying Lee Liquid Alox.

Sounds and looks like your bullets are undersized and under lubed.

 

[357mag357]

I have used Lee Alox in the past but I switched to ROOSTER JACKET BULLET FILM LUBE. It is alot less messy and once dry it does not feel tacky. I small amount goes along way. I got my from Midway.

www.roosterlabs.com

 

[evan price]

"Walkalong" 1200+ FPS in 9MM without leading is easily done with the right diameter (.001 to .002 over bore diameter) and hardness. (not too soft, yet not too hard either)

I routinely shoot 1100 FPS with 9mm cast slugs, hard alloy (92/6/2) sized .357" with no serious leading.

Oh, one more thing I noticed- you said your 6-cav is making bullets oversized & out of round- sounds like you need to lap the cavities and the faces of the mould itself. Sounds like the mould may not be closing all the way and thus giving you Out Of Round bullets. iirc Lee says up to .010" shims between the blocks will not leave flash on the boolits but that will oversize the boolits and give yo ua little out of round. (Lee says this, in case you need to cast a bit larger than the mould can normally cast as machined).

 

[ArchAngelCD]

All good advice in this thread so far but I truly feel this is a lube problem. (or really a lack of lube) I'm sure it you follow the instructions given by "evan price" in Post #5 you will see all the leading stop unless the bullets are actually harder than 15/16 BHN because a bullet that hard being pushed only to less than 1,000 "might" be a problem. (I said might be) You usually don't need a bullet any harder than 12 BHN for under 1000 fps without leading. Although, even a bullet slightly harder like yours should be fine if properly lubed.

 

[rjbishop]

All great advice folks- thanks a many. I too feel this is probably a lube problem- they just felt "light" on lube this go-round.

The mold is only slightly oversize and OOR- it is casting .3585 perpendicular to the mold, and .357 parallel to the mold. I have really worked the mold over with buffing, a light stoning on the faces- yet I can still see just a BITTY amount of light at the bottom of the cavities when closed (might be just spilling in via the vents, but I don't think so- it looks like the mold is closing completely around the alighment pins, but ever so slight light shining through all along the cavities). I can also "rock" the mold top to bottom a couple thousanths- it looks like the mold faces are slightly high along a line drawn between the alignment pins. I'd LOVE to be able to pull the alignment pins and lap the faces of both mold halves, but those pins are really in there. I wonder if the pins will come out easier if the mold is hot? I sure hate to wreck the nice tight fit of the pins.

Also- I know everyone speaks highly of BullPlate sprue lube- what do you think about Permatex Anti-Sieze? So far it's been working real good, but I'm wondering if Bullplate would improve things any.

Anyway, got the lead out tonight, and we'll try a new lube regime and resize to .357 on the next round. Thanks again for all the wonderful advice!

 

[jjohnson]

Lewis Lead Remover

Okay, I'm going to skip past the advice on preventing leading.

Once your bore IS leaded, you can try solvents and elbow grease forever and still not get it all out... or you can cough up the price of one box of pistol ammo for a Lewis Lead Remover from Brownell's.

This rig is like a cleaning rod and jig, but the business end has a piece of bronze screen on the end. When you pull THAT dude through your bore, you will see it rips all the lead out - mechanically - so you can clean your bore from there. No point in just polishing up the lead that's staying in your barrel. This tool is one item I wish I'd had decades before. I guarantee you'll like it.

 

[.38 Special]

There's a reason why tumble lubing and bullets designed for it are considered second best. And now you know what it is!

 

[germ]

I have the same problem with an XD9 and an RIA 1911 (.45). Using LLA or Rooster Jacket, single or double coat, both barrels leaded up badly. Got a 450 lube sizer and ended the problem for both guns. However, my .45 230gr bullets have a heavy bevel which collects lots of lube and I have to wipe it off. This slows the process considerably and is a real pain. The 9mm bullet only has a very slight bevel so is not so difficult and much faster. I'm going to have my brother machine the bevel out of the mold cavities of the 230.

That said, I'm not real impressed with the 450. What a piece of #&*! Yeah I know, get a $tar. If the Japs ever enter the lube/sizer business like they did the auto industry...well, we know how that's going.

Both barrels cleaned up well with a good dose and soaking of Ed's Red, then a wad of dry chore boy afterward.

It had never occurred to me that maybe I had TOO much tumble lube on the bullets. Doesn't seem possible. Maybe I'll experiment with thinning the LLA, maybe not.

(Thinking to myself) Just got a box of XTP 230 JHP's and loaded some workup rounds last night. Soooo much easier, faster, and cleaner to deal with. I could very easily be converted away from lead forever. (Provided bullets are available!!) I'm going to look for some RNFP for target practice.

 

[freakshow10mm]

Lyman #2 alloy, Lar's lube, 1150fps, cleans up with Hoppe's Elite and two passes of a Boresnake.