Lead Poisoning....this is not good news

[AZ Jeff]

The FBI trainees were shooting 12 gauge slugs and (FMJ?) 9mm, but it isn't clear if the take-home lead came from the outdoor range, indoor range, or was there for years:

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports...-0346-2572.pdf

The same study showed that outdoor ranges had the potential for high lead exposure (depending on the type of rounds, wind, etc.). . .

The BLL (blood lead levels) listed in that report for the candidates studied were not all that high in many cases. I realize that a lot of this comes down to a personal definition of "high" for BLL, but the average level PRIOR to the lead reduction program in that study was less than 14ug/DL, and down to less than 8 after the program.

While those values are elevated above that for your normal human from an industrialized country (approx 5 ug/DL), that's not really "very elevated" when compared to other studies where some persons have BBL of 40-60 in some industries.

 

[RFM]

To original poster:

I hope you do all right, Heal thyself.


NO MORE LEAD BULLETS!!!

MORE PLASMA ENERGY WEAPONS!!!

 

[brickeyee]

Lead styphanate (also spelled styphnate) from primers is a real hazard. It forms organic lead compounds that are easily absorbed into the body.
The point raised earlier about lead vapor from casting is correct. The vapor pressure is to low to be a hazard at normal casting temperature below 700F. Above ~700F the tin starts to come out of solution.
You can create a hazard by using a torch to speed up lead melting in a pot however. The flame temperature is high enough to create considerable lead vapor.
The lead in lead paint is lead acetate (AKA 'sugar of lead') it was used as a drying agent and gloss improver. Flat paints used lead oxide for a white pigment, but that stopped a very long time ago. Lead acetate remained in use for a long time. Just as with lead styphanate, it is an organic lead compound easily absorbed into the body.
Metallic lead is not a real hazard unless the metal is reduced to powder. It is a surface area problem. A big chunk of lead has a small surface area for its weight and little can be absorbed. Lead powder has a very large surface area by weight and you can absorb a significant amount from ingesting it.
Bullets left in a person are not a hazard. Not enough surface area.
A large source of lead dust at ranges is lead vaporized fro the base of bullets. It is hot and reactive and can form organic compounds, or just settle on the range as micro fine lead dust. Easily disturbed and absorbed.

 

[Third_Rail]

I wonder if suppressors would help with this problem - trapping more of the lead vapor and lead compound vapor. Anyone know?

 

[esheato]

By chance, was your lead test done by a finger prick blood sample? Also, how many tests have you had?

I had a lab draw blood from my arm for the test. I appreciate your concern and insight towards a possible reason but I believe the results to be accurate.

I haven't been tested since the original diagnosis. I haven't experienced any symptoms...ever. I don't think the problem was nearly as bad as it appeared...and I probably won't get re-tested. I've severely cut down on my casting schedule and I've incorporated regular hand washing when I'm around my guns.

Ed

 

[AZ Jeff]

A large source of lead dust at ranges is lead vaporized fro the base of bullets. It is hot and reactive and can form organic compounds, or just settle on the range as micro fine lead dust. Easily disturbed and absorbed.

Actually, the lead vapors from the base of bullets is FAR LESS SIGNIFICANT as a source of lead ingestion into the shooter than is the lead salts formed by primer ignition. There is a very interesting article from about 1996 in the Journal of the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers that covers this. See this article for more details on the relative rankings of sources of lead from shooting.

 

[kennyboy]

The human body can filter out 2mg of lead daily.

 

[Homer]

arsenic

If you are a caster....you can't forget arsenic that is found in wheel weights and shot. I shoot indoors and cast 90% of my bullets all from ww. When ever i am tested, i am always over on arsenic. Lead would be high but arsenic really high. Yep got shots and tried zinc. Only thing that curred it was abstinence from casting n shootin' indoors....

Homer

 

[Jeff22]

lead levels

I just had a physical exam (long overdue).

Among other things, they tested my lead level.

It was 10mg/dl.

I was tested in 1993 and it was 13mg/dl and then tested again in 1998 or99 and it was 11mg/dl.

I do a fair amount of shooting on indoor ranges, but they are all fairly modern and well ventilated. I am the biggest brass scrounge in the world, but I wear latex gloves when picking up brass (most of the time) to limit my exposure. I have also begun taking handiwipe type cleaners with me in my shooting bag. (Or at least most of the time -- I've forgotten a couple times lately)

About 25 years ago my commercial reloader had to go through chelation therapy because he was casting his own lead bullets in an insufficiently ventilated space. Back about 1988 or so the rangemaster from the Sheriff's Department got a high lead level on a test (over 20mg/dl I think) because he taught 4 or 5 days a week all winter on a poorly ventilated indoor range in the basement of the City-County Bldg. He also drank coffee and chewed tobacco in the control room (at times) and I suspect that was the major cause of his contamination.

The doctor yelled at him about his hygiene on the range and he took extra Vitamin C and zinc for a time. In May of 1989 the tech school opened their new indoor range, which is MUCH better ventilated (exceeds OSHA specs, in fact) and the problem resolved itself.

Many commercial indoor ranges or indoor ranges at private gun clubs have poor ventilation. Some shooters wear particle masks when shooting. I shot in a couple of rimfire bullseye matches at a private club up north that had VERY poor ventilation where the club provided the masks and wearing them was mandatory.

Check out www.uniquetek.com. They sell D-Lead abrasive hand soap, D-Lead waterless hand cleaner, and D-Wipe lead cleaning cloths. I shoot IPSC matches at the Pinetree Pistol Club in Rockford, Ill and they usually have a big container of D-Wipe wipes available for shooters to use when they finish on the range. Brownell's also sells some of those products as well. The D-Lead and D-Wipe products are designed to remove any heavy metal from the skin, not just lead.

 

[Sheldon J]

Quote:
Is there a way to leach metals out of the body? Some health food/holistic medicine method?



Yes, there are ways to remove that stuff naturally. My dad had several such procedures done recently to remove mercury and nickel that was causing serious health problems, and my understanding is that the same procedures can be used to remove other heavy metals.

One such method involved soaking the feet while running some kind of current (there's more to it, but I don't recall exactly what); my dad said the water turned black (!!) from the metals being removed. The other widely used method is sauna, because your body removes a lot of heavy metals through sweat... but, it must be the right kind of sauna with the right kind of heating elements, otherwise you can do just as much harm as good. Keep in mind that these methods are slow, and require repeated treatments. However, they are also non-invasive and won't do any other damage to your system.

esheato, I can dig up the info for my Dad's doc if you want. He's in Reno, which is a bit of a drive from where you are, but you could still do a day trip

Never heard of this but I have of something called Chelation, this method is best left up to a doctor and your insurance co. but it will remove all heavy metals from the body.

 

[Smoke Rizen]

Oh great, in the 60s I worked construction doing commercial buildings. We used alot of Reybestos composite panels. I was usually on the saw as I was the "Punk" in the crew. Always in a cloud of white dust,cough,choke!
In 1990 I got a questionaire on testing for Agent Orange contamination from my service in RVN ,I threw it in the trash.
Now lead? The stress is to much, think I'll go outside and smoke a cigarette!

 

[hso]

Oral chelation (pills) or IV chelation either one can reduce blood lead levels. IV chelation takes a couple of hours, but is very effective over a short course of treatment. Oral chelation takes longer and requires you take the pills every day and drink lots of water, but there's no need to go in for the IV. Both require monitoring or blood and urine levels to help keep calcium and potassium levels within norms.

Chelation is recommended only after blood lead levels exceed 30 micrograms/deciliter lead.

Possible beneficial side effects of chelation is a reduction in arterial plaque deposits. Please note that I only said "possible".

 

[RonC]

hso is correct in that you should be monitored during chelation therapy. Chelation therapy should not be taken casually. It will bind and remove essential minerals like zinc, copper and calcium as well as the toxic metals.

You will hear of people going for bogus 'cleansing' of their systems using chelation therapy. The 'therapy' does nothing for organic chemicals (pesticides, female hormone precursors from water), but can make you deficient in some of the essential minerals.

Ron

 

[Redbeard55]

Lead Poisoning.....this is not good news

When I took a lead test several years ago, I was told a normal score could range up to 25. Different labs may use different tests and the normal ranges an vary from one lab to another, depending upon the methodology. Ask what the normal range should be.

I work at a chemical company, although my background is more in medical diagnostics and I am not a chemist. Someone mentioned that EDTA is a chelator. It does remove lead, but it will also chelate any number of metals, including calcium, magnesium and iron. I'm not at work so there are probably additional metals/substances I have not included. EDTA is typically used to treat hard water by removing the calcium. This means the dosage needs to be carefully monitored by your doctor. Take too much EDTA and you run the risk of more serious medical problems, possibly including brittle bones/fractures, anemia, excessive bleeding times, etc. Take too much EDTA and you could bleed to death from a relatively minor cut (calcium is needed in the coagulation cascade that controls clotting). Make sure the doctor that treats you is familiar with lead poisoning and treatment. Just because someone has an MD behind their name does not mean they know what they are doing. Doctors tend to specialize over time and just like everyone else they forget information if they do not have a need for it on a regular basis. Find someone that knows what they are doing. Just because you think your local MD is a great guy/gal doesn't mean they are experienced in every facet of medicine. Your local pharmacist might be a good resource. They might be able to double check any prescription to ensure the amount prescribed is appropriate for your body weight.

I would agree with the sound advice of not eating or drinking until after you have washed your hands. I would also add that you should wear chemical resistant gloves while cleaning firearms. The solvents you use to clean your firearms can also dissolve lead. Once the lead is in solution, the solvents in the cleaner will open up your skin and allow the lead to be absorbed through the skin (in much the same way people were poisoned by lead during the days when paint was lead based). Hope things work out.

 

[hso]

Make sure the doctor that treats you is familiar with lead poisoning and treatment. Just because someone has an MD behind their name does not mean they know what they are doing.

Redbeard55 is correct in that specialization is the question here. You're family physician will be well versed in the standard maladies and treatmetn options, but may not have a good grounding in heavy metals poisoning and treatmenet. Find an Occupational Physician. They are very familiar with lead, zinc, chromium and other industrial metals that can make you sick and as such are better qualified to tell you if you need treatment and what that might be. Remember that all physicians are hired professionals to do a job. Just like working with an architect to design and build your home you should work with your physician to understand the nature of any problem and what the two of you need to do to deal with it.


At levels above 80 µg/dL, serious, permanent health damage may occur.
Above 50 µg/dL, serious health damage may occur.
At lead levels between 30 and 50 µg/dL, health damage may be occurring, even if there are no symptoms.
From 20-30 µg/dL, regular exposure is occurring. There is some evidence of potential physiologic problems.
From 1-20 µg/dL, lead is building up in the body and some exposure is occurring.
6 micrograms is the typical level for U.S. adults. Some exposure is occurring.
Normal blood lead levels for children are 0-10 µg/dL with 3 being typical.

My last BLL was 4 µg/dL and I shoot at home and at least once a week as well as cleaning and working on my guns.

 

[esheato]

At my doctors insistence, I had a follow-up test done.

Results came in and they are a 14. The precautions I took (no more smoking or eating in the gun room, less casting, more hand washing) were effective.

I certainly learned a lot from this thread and I hope everyone else has too.

Ed

 

[rayra]

Eggselent news, and thanks for the followup post.

Did your Dr mention by chance what the 'normal' lead levels were for a person with no shooting or work-related exposure. I'm slightly curious about that. Think my next overall health exam will incldde a lead exam. I do a lot of remodeling projects on old homes - I'm more worried about that type of exposure, than from firing lead outdoors.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Good info in this thread.

I used to work on lead abatement painting contracts (bridges) in NY.

A 40 count in your blood at any single test meant removal from the job site (paid leave). You were on watch with 30 or higher. This may have changed.

Just because some of the info in this thread mentions 30-50 as being "ok"..it isn't. If you have a level of 35 consistently for a few years, it can result in serious health risks. I know a few people who would fluctuate between 30-50 in this type of work, and became seriously ill in less than a decade. This is one of those swept under the rug occupational hazards. Who knows how many people have died as a result. But I can tell you from personal experience, I've seen many veterans of this business all end up in bad shape.

Here's the thing. You could work around lead for one time, and spike up to 60. You may or may not experience symptoms. If you do, you might experience some, and not others. Everyone is different. After that heavy exposure, your level will drop. You'll be fine in the long run. It is better to hit a lead level of 70 once, than it is to have a level of 35 for years and years.

The #1 way to get lead into your body is to eat it. If you handle lead, don't put your fingers in your mouth, nose, eyes or anywhere else. The #2 way is to breathe it. This is no where near as much of a source of lead poisoning as ingesting it. You have to breathe an aweful lot of lead contaminated dust/smoke to get a high level. I mean a lot. We're talking to where your nostrils will be caked with the dust/smoke "black snot." Of course, saturation levels will vary in different environments and situations.


If you handle lead, don't smoke. It goes from you fingers to the filter to your mouth. Don't eat. Don't drink either because if you handle the cup, it can get on the cup. Also, you might have some on your lips in the form of dust. Also, anything in the vicinity of the lead handling may become contaminated.


Washing your hands and face helps a lot, and is the best defense. Can't stress this enough. Like nurses say "your fingers are the 10 biggest germs"..same goes for lead.

If there is a lot of lead in the air, the only defense is a respirator. The cheesy dust masks with rubber band might help, but are not what we used and are not sufficient. We used the 3M style respirators with diaphragms and detachable filters. These form a positive seal and do not allow air to leak in or out from the sides. Somedays, the filters wouldn't even work for a full work day.

Latex gloves probably won't help, but they certainly can't hurt. In my experience, touching lead isn't the problem. Your skin is very good at keeping heavy metals out of your body. If the gloves keep the lead off your fingers, so that lead won't go from your fingers to your mouth or food, then that is a positive. However, gloves or not, you should wash your hands very well. So I don't see the value in latex gloves since I need to wash hands regardless.


We used to sandblast lead based paint off of structural steel. This is the worst, because it breaks up the lead based paint into dust. Dust gets everywhere inside the containment area. You have to wear a tyvek suit. Dust isn't necessarily bad because you might breathe it (although that's part of it), but because it is so fine it gets everywhere and by that means it becomes easy to ingest. Imagine the things you touch. From shoelaces to your belt. It is very easy to "take it home" with you. The dust inside was exactly like the dust you saw on people from 9/11, just clouds so thick you cannot see more than 3ft. Except it was a reddish color. On those days, we had full face masks and sometimes air supplies.

I never had a level higher than 12 despite having to shovel and vacuum TONS of that crap daily. This proves that safety measures do work. I don't smoke, I used to wash my hands and face like a freak, and I would wear a respirator as much as possible (but from time to time you get exposed to the dust). I followed the rules as closely as possible because prior to that I worked as a safety inspector, and part of that job was enforcing safe lead practices. So I knew what was up.

Of all the employees, ALL the smokers had around 30-40. The non-smokers were around 20 or under.


Be safe.

 

[esheato]

Did your Dr mention by chance what the 'normal' lead levels were for a person with no shooting or work-related exposure.

No, he didn't.

Although from other posts in this thread, I'd assume the average non-work related amount was below 10.

Ed