Learning to shoot more accurately

[horsemen61]

Ok guys my good friend likes to shoot,hunt,reloads his own ammo well he is finally wanting to shoot for groups i.e. Accuracy. His gear consist of a tikka T3 lite .308 with a 3x9x40 leupold VXI. He has started loading for it and is trying to develop a hunting load that will shoot under an inch. I believe this is possible he is using hornady 150 grain BTSP pills and for powder he has Varget,Benchmark,CFE223,IMR 4064,IMR 4320 I am trying to help him with his groups
I'll put up pics of his groups to show you guys. He is shooting from a bench I understand that a hunting load doesn't need to under an inch. But he is trying real hard to get there and I'm trying to help. Any tips or anything books or videos that could help would be appreciated

Thanks guys

 

[horsemen61]

Those are some handloads I'd have to ask what charges specifically but I know they are hand loads

 

[splattergun]

Looks to me that he might be anticipating recoil... flinching. That would make it tough to rate his reloads.

 

[Curator]

Ok guys my good friend likes to shoot,hunt,reloads his own ammo well he is finally wanting to shoot for groups i.e. Accuracy. His gear consist of a tikka T3 lite .308 with a 3x9x40 leupold VXI. He has started loading for it and is trying to develop a hunting load that will shoot under an inch. I believe this is possible he is using hornady 150 grain BTSP pills and for powder he has Varget,Benchmark,CFE223,IMR 4064,IMR 4320 I am trying to help him with his groups
I'll put up pics of his groups to show you guys. He is shooting from a bench I understand that a hunting load doesn't need to under an inch. But he is trying real hard to get there and I'm trying to help. Any tips or anything books or videos that could help would be

Thanks guys

appreciated
Horsemen61:

No negative criticism intended but your friend may need to learn how to shoot consistently using the bench-rest position. Simply shooting off a bench does not cure poor shooting technique. Start with rifle with known accuracy potential and see if he can shoot it well. His handloads may also not be as consistent as required. It is impossible to diagnose from the information provided. Have someone with proven shooting ability and see how they shoot the same gun and ammo.

 

[horsey300]

Watch him shoot, point out how much his muzzle is moving, his technique needs to be worked on as much as the loads, I can shoot from a bench but day in and out for accuracy, I put my belly in the dirt. His handloads need to be consistent in charge weights and coal. I don't know how picky he is with his loading process, nor how much he steadies each shot nor time between shots. Starting with the basics is the best first place too look. Of the powders given, varget 4064 and 4320 should all work out.

 

[horsemen61]

Thanks for the tips guys

 

[witchhunter]

There are vast differences in bench techniques, but consistency is the key. Some like to hold the rifle, some like to let the rifle free recoil. Pressure on forend etc. Again there is a lot more to it than just using a bench. You still have to breathe and squeeze. Then you can start on loads....

 

[horsey300]

Thanks for the tips guys

Also, I know you didn't say he was willing to try new bullets, but in the same weight, with the same powders, flat bases group better. Sierra prohunter. They'll still kill anything he was attempting to hit with the hornady.

 

[jmorris]

I would suggest getting a box of "premium" ammunition and seeing how it shoots.

If it has the same erratic results then a rest that reduces or eliminates the shooter from degrading accuracy would be the next step, I suppose would be a good first step too.

Once he knows what the rifle and components can do it might help him and the rifle work together.

And if it gets no better, then he knows it's not the fault of him or the ammunition.

 

[readyeddy]

Use a Lead Sled to find a good load.

 

[coloradokevin]

A couple of thoughts:

1) Start out by shooting a very accurate load through the rifle, and find out what it can do. My .308 Win Tikka shoots Federal Gold Medal Match 175 grain loads almost as accurately as my match hand loads.

2) If your friend is still learning, have him put someone competent behind the rifle to shoot a few groups first.

I give the above advice with one purpose in mind: proving what the rifle can and will do. Once you've covered that issue, you can start figuring out if the current groups are an issue with the loads, or the shooter. But, if you don't know what the rifle can do already, you could be chasing your tail if this is all a shooter error issue.

 

[Legionnaire]

Yeah, this doesn't look like a load problem; any quality factory ammo should shoot better than that out of a Tikka. I'd get a box of 168 and 175 grain Gold Medal Match and have someone who has good technique shoot a couple of 5-shot groups to discover/demonstrate what the rifle is capable of.

Make sure nothing in the mounting of the scope is loose. Take the human out of the equation as much as possible. For me, this is shooting with a padded rest up front, with the stock rested at the same position every time; bean bag under the rear of the stock; gently squeeze the rear bag with left hand to adjust elevation. I'm not adverse to putting another bag between the butt and my shoulder to reduce felt recoil if I'm going to be at it for a while. Goal is no visible movement when looking through the scope. Then breath and trigger control. Gently squeeze that trigger; the gun going off should come as a surprise. Follow through; hold that trigger in the fully drawn position for a couple of seconds before releasing it. Good technique makes a world of difference.

Use a Lead Sled to find a good load.

Good option if you have one available. One is on my buy list.

 

[captain awesome]

Try this; it has been very revealing,
Make him shoot one at a time. You load the rifle for him with out him seeing. Load an empty chamber now and then and watch him closely. See what happens.

 

[RecoilRob]

I agree with captain awesome....see if the guy is flinching by loading (or not) his rifle for him and watching to see what happens. I've done this with/to people before and it was sometimes comical how badly they were anticipating the recoil which was ruining their accuracy. Even experienced shooters will sometimes flinch when you do this test to them, but it will be AFTER the bullet has left and they can shoot tight groups even though it looks like they're jerking the trigger.

If you have a precision airgun or .22 handy....let the fellow shoot it and see how he does. If he can't shoot tight groups with a proven accurate low or non-recoiling rifle...then trying to fix the Tikka or loads is not going to work out well.

 

[jmorris]

The unloaded firearm, while thinking it's loaded is good to see if one is effecting the rifle negativity.

This is more along the lines of what I was talking about for eliminating the shooter from the equation all together.

 

[Kingcreek]

In addition to the above, he might find that different torque on action screws might affect group size. Trick is to address 1 variable at a time. Start by test group with factory match grade ammo. The tikkas are typically wonderfully accurate and have good adjustable triggers too.

 

[Llama Bob]

I agree that this is most likely the shooter, not the load or the gun. However, I've found T3 lites to be relatively difficult rifles to shoot - high recoil and very jumpy due to the light weight and stock design. .308 isn't the worst caliber by any means, but it's enough to emphasize some of the awkward aspects of the T3L.

I would have an experienced shooter shoot the gun to figure out how much of the issue is gun/ammo and how much is the shooter. I'm going to assume mostly shooter, but I could be wrong.

On the shooter side the first question I'd want to know is whether he's familiar with the fundamentals of marksmanship:
- sight(scope) picture & alignment
- breathing
- grip
- trigger squeeze
- follow through & calling your shot
- natural point of aim

If he's not, teaching those things will greatly speed his improvement. If he knows the above well, I would move on to the ball & dummy (aka real or fake round) drill to see what's going on during the shot when you've got a dummy in the chamber.

 

[horsemen61]

Next time we shoot I'll try that ok guys thanks for the tips

 

[1stmarine]

IMHO, look for local professional training.
A one on one session with a professional instructor is worth more than all the books, videos and online advice one might get.
Not that learning is not important that it is, but I you will be surprised the amount of things that are exchanged through traditional iteration.
Check at your local clubs and ask around. They are not that expensive and the most important part of the shooting experience, a lot more
important than equipment itself.
I could give you general advice in line with what others suggested but w/o close observation and that kind of iteration it is hard to help and might
even make it worse.
Where are you located? if you are not too far I will be happy to host for you at the local range for a spring clinic around April/May when we come out.

 

[ScrapMetalSlug]

What distance is he shooting from? I did not see that mentioned. Big difference if these are groups at 25 yards or 200 yards. I agree with captain, using the dummy round technique to detect flinching.

After flinching go over the 4 fundamentals; trigger squeeze, sight picture, steady position, and breathing.

 

[horsemen61]

Slug

This is at 100 yards

 

[Bart B.]

If you see his trigger finger flicking off the trigger as he fires, ask him to keep it pulled back against its stop until both he and the rifle stop moving from recoil. Flicking fingers flick the hand that holds the stock holding the barreled action that moves the bore axis in some direction while the bullet goes through the barrel. Surely, he can hold still for 1/100th of a second.

Yes, us humans react that fast to our sense of touch and feel. Most of it is anticipation of recoil. Fuuuuuh - gettaboutit.

 

[Sunray]

"...shooting from a bench..." Off a solid rest?
If he hasn't worked up the load, tell him to forget about where the group hits. He's looking for the best group size according to the load. Not the best group period. He needs to pick one powder(suggest IMR4064), load some ammo(4 rounds of each load beginning with the start load) and work with one powder at a time.
So it's not so much about his being accurate as long he hits the target. Wouldn't hurt to use sighting in targets vs bullseye targets too. They have an aiming point and 1" squares.
Bit of dry fire practice wouldn't hurt. Teaches sight picture, trigger control and breathing.
The rifle only weighs a bit over 6 pounds too. It might be pounding him, even with a 150. A slip on recoil pad will help and not cost a pile of money. They do add about an inch of LOP though. Pachmayr makes one.

 

[Paul7]

A couple of thoughts:

1) Start out by shooting a very accurate load through the rifle, and find out what it can do. My .308 Win Tikka shoots Federal Gold Medal Match 175 grain loads almost as accurately as my match hand loads.

I've heard a number of people say that about Federal being about as good as handloads. Using it I got a .375" group with my hunting rifle, why reload?

 

[Sav .250]

Groups are what they are.