The Real Hawkeye
member
If you're asking me, no I didn't. I asked if I would be able to retrieve when I came back in 10 days, and they seemed to think it was funny.
Lectured by a cop at airport for carrying HP ammo
- Thread starter The Real Hawkeye
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Gray Peterson
Member
Hawkeye, which AIRPORT did this take place at?
geegee
Member
When I first started flying with a handgun, I was aware that it needed to be checked in a locked case, with the ammo separately packed. I figured it was no big deal, so I just slipped a loaded mag under the foam and offered the gun in case with the slide locked back. The counter agent would look at it, give me the tag to fill out, and I went on my way. Until the last time I tried it.
I placed the case in front of the ticket counter agent (a pleasant enough young lady), who confidently picked up my .45, checked the chamber, and then lifted the foam and saw my loaded magazine. Oops.
She said "Well, look at this!" She then proceeded to quickly eject the rounds into her other hand and said "I guess this will just be a contribution to "the airport police ammo fund." Uh, yeah...sure thing. Glad to, in fact!
She gave me the tag to fill out, smiled at me, and returned the locked case to me. No more cute stuff for me, and I counted myself fortunate that she handled it the way she did.
From that point forward, I always packed a 20 round box of unopened ammo inside a small triangular Doskocil case, with a lock.
In another Doskocil case went the pistol, also with a lock. I was never hassled about it again, but then I haven't flown with a gun since we were attacked. The hassles with the airlines are just not worth it to me if I can avoid them, and with the majority of my travel, I can and do.
I placed the case in front of the ticket counter agent (a pleasant enough young lady), who confidently picked up my .45, checked the chamber, and then lifted the foam and saw my loaded magazine. Oops.
She said "Well, look at this!" She then proceeded to quickly eject the rounds into her other hand and said "I guess this will just be a contribution to "the airport police ammo fund." Uh, yeah...sure thing. Glad to, in fact!
She gave me the tag to fill out, smiled at me, and returned the locked case to me. No more cute stuff for me, and I counted myself fortunate that she handled it the way she did.
From that point forward, I always packed a 20 round box of unopened ammo inside a small triangular Doskocil case, with a lock.
In another Doskocil case went the pistol, also with a lock. I was never hassled about it again, but then I haven't flown with a gun since we were attacked. The hassles with the airlines are just not worth it to me if I can avoid them, and with the majority of my travel, I can and do.
HankB
Member
Firethorn:
A full case of this powder is virtually guaranteed to cause catastrophic failure of the firearm it's fired in. (Think "explosion" and "shrapnel.") This would not be good for the person firing it. If that person is an thief who's stolen the ammo, this type of experience will go a long way toward curing him of that habit.
(The downside of making "special" loads is if you get them mixed in with your own good ammo. )
There are MANY types of smokeless powder, with widely varied compositions and burning rates. "Bullseye" is an extremely fast-burning powder meant for light target loads in pistols. For example, a charge of 2.7 grains (by weight) with a 148 grain bullet is a standard target load for .38 Special. This only fills a fraction of the available case volume.
A full case of this powder is virtually guaranteed to cause catastrophic failure of the firearm it's fired in. (Think "explosion" and "shrapnel.") This would not be good for the person firing it. If that person is an thief who's stolen the ammo, this type of experience will go a long way toward curing him of that habit.
(The downside of making "special" loads is if you get them mixed in with your own good ammo.
)crewchief
Member
Ok I agree that this Cop appears to be in the wrong, well at least with the way he handled the situation but I have to clear some severely wrong things that are being said. I work as a supervisor for the screeners for the TSA and here are the Federal laws that have to be adhered to.
1) All ammo that is inside a checked piece of luggage has to be in it's original container. Now this can be bent a little depending on the discretion of TSA supervisor or airline representative. For instance if you have hand-loaded ammo that has no original container, you can either put it in a old or different original cardboard container or one of those plastic container that separate each round by a divider. It is still the supervisor's discretion if the ammo is in one big box like Federal bulk .22's with no divider between each round if they are allowed or not.
2) Ammo that is packaged in "ammo cans" like belts of .50 cal. ammo are ok so long as they are in the original ammo can and the belts have the original cardboard divider between layers. Also original bandoleers in the original box's and on the original stripper clips are ok.
3) Primers have to be in their original box's no if and or buts.
4) Unprimed brass can be in regular ziplock baggies or any container, this also includes already fired brass with used primers still seated.
5) If empty brass has new primers installed or unfired then each piece of brass has to be in a divided box like outlined in #1 above.
6) Just the bullets whether rifle or pistol can be in baggies or boxed just like empty brass.
7) This one might get someone's goat but at no time is a container of just gunpowder like for reloading allowed.
8) At no time is ammo or ammo related stuff allowed to be in the same internal case that the firearm is located in.
9) Magazines do not count as a suitable container for ammo to travel in.
10) A screener or screening supervisor has no obligation to give any type of receipt for items confiscated.
11) Depending on the situation a LEO must be summoned no matter what by the screener. This is because at no time is a screener or any member of the TSA allowed to handle a firearm and only LEO's assigned on duty can handle a firearm. This is important because if you see a TSA person handling a firearm of yours tell them immediately to stop and ask for a supervisor and tell them. Handling of a firearm is a immediate firing offense and the TSA takes this quite seriously. This however does not pertain to ammo as they can handle all the ammo they want.
Now I am sorry if I sound like a a-hole about this stuff, but I wanted to make sure that correct info was being given and not assumptions. If you want to know exactly where these laws are located well I can tell you that they are both Federal Aviation Regulations and in the TSA Screening Standard Operating Procedure. Both are considered sensitive security information books so it is impossible for you to actually get a hard copy in writing. I will tell you though that every screening location is required to have a SOP on hand and that if you question a law the screening supervisor should be able to quote the law/reason for confiscation directly out of said manual in your presence.
1) All ammo that is inside a checked piece of luggage has to be in it's original container. Now this can be bent a little depending on the discretion of TSA supervisor or airline representative. For instance if you have hand-loaded ammo that has no original container, you can either put it in a old or different original cardboard container or one of those plastic container that separate each round by a divider. It is still the supervisor's discretion if the ammo is in one big box like Federal bulk .22's with no divider between each round if they are allowed or not.
2) Ammo that is packaged in "ammo cans" like belts of .50 cal. ammo are ok so long as they are in the original ammo can and the belts have the original cardboard divider between layers. Also original bandoleers in the original box's and on the original stripper clips are ok.
3) Primers have to be in their original box's no if and or buts.
4) Unprimed brass can be in regular ziplock baggies or any container, this also includes already fired brass with used primers still seated.
5) If empty brass has new primers installed or unfired then each piece of brass has to be in a divided box like outlined in #1 above.
6) Just the bullets whether rifle or pistol can be in baggies or boxed just like empty brass.
7) This one might get someone's goat but at no time is a container of just gunpowder like for reloading allowed.
8) At no time is ammo or ammo related stuff allowed to be in the same internal case that the firearm is located in.
9) Magazines do not count as a suitable container for ammo to travel in.
10) A screener or screening supervisor has no obligation to give any type of receipt for items confiscated.
11) Depending on the situation a LEO must be summoned no matter what by the screener. This is because at no time is a screener or any member of the TSA allowed to handle a firearm and only LEO's assigned on duty can handle a firearm. This is important because if you see a TSA person handling a firearm of yours tell them immediately to stop and ask for a supervisor and tell them. Handling of a firearm is a immediate firing offense and the TSA takes this quite seriously. This however does not pertain to ammo as they can handle all the ammo they want.
Now I am sorry if I sound like a a-hole about this stuff, but I wanted to make sure that correct info was being given and not assumptions. If you want to know exactly where these laws are located well I can tell you that they are both Federal Aviation Regulations and in the TSA Screening Standard Operating Procedure. Both are considered sensitive security information books so it is impossible for you to actually get a hard copy in writing. I will tell you though that every screening location is required to have a SOP on hand and that if you question a law the screening supervisor should be able to quote the law/reason for confiscation directly out of said manual in your presence.
jimpeel
Member
I guess the moral of the story is to get an ammo box to put the ammo in before you fly or plan on buying some when you get to your destination.
Aguila Blanca
Member
crewchief:
The following was copied directly off the TSA web site:
Either you have it wrong, ot the TSA is posting information on its official web site that doesn't conform to the law. Which is it?
I posted the Federal law directly from the TSA web site earlier in this thread. It does NOT state that ammo must be in its original container.
The following was copied directly off the TSA web site:
Either you have it wrong, ot the TSA is posting information on its official web site that doesn't conform to the law. Which is it?
Thanks crewchief, its always enlightening to get information from the source.
Often times our resident defenders of government agents (leo's and in this case screeners) on this forum say: "blame the politician who passed the law, not the cop who enforces it". Or a variation of the above.
The thing that jumps out at me in this case, is the screener apparently is not enforcing the law, but rather a secret Aviation Regulation/Operating Procedure. You seem to treat the two interchangeably, which I'd caution is a very dangerous mistake. Especially since said regulations/procedures are secret. "Eyes only?...he can read you the reg. but you can't get a hard copy? This is sounding stranger by the minute.
Potential for abuse, and confusion, as evidenced in this instance, over what chould be a trivial cut and dry issue.
What recourse does a citizen have if they have a problem with a particular TSA enforcement action? Or is that procedure secret also?
Often times our resident defenders of government agents (leo's and in this case screeners) on this forum say: "blame the politician who passed the law, not the cop who enforces it". Or a variation of the above.
The thing that jumps out at me in this case, is the screener apparently is not enforcing the law, but rather a secret Aviation Regulation/Operating Procedure. You seem to treat the two interchangeably, which I'd caution is a very dangerous mistake. Especially since said regulations/procedures are secret. "Eyes only?...he can read you the reg. but you can't get a hard copy? This is sounding stranger by the minute.
Potential for abuse, and confusion, as evidenced in this instance, over what chould be a trivial cut and dry issue.
What recourse does a citizen have if they have a problem with a particular TSA enforcement action? Or is that procedure secret also?
HankB
Member
There was just a story in the news about a TSA baggage screener who was arrested for stealing CD's from checked baggage - they had him on video tape from a surveillance camera pilfering baggage, and charged him with theft.
Charges were just dropped on the grounds that prosecution would reveal "sensitive security information" so . . . he walked free.
So, it's official: theft by TSA screeners has now been non-criminalized.
Esky
Member
HankB--
Any possibility you could provide a link to that story?
I'd just love to hammer some of my "elected representatives" in Congress about this matter. (The scare quotes are because they may be elected, but they seldom if ever represent ME.)
Esky
who doesn't like the secret procedure stuff at all, and thinks it is probably not legal
Any possibility you could provide a link to that story?
I'd just love to hammer some of my "elected representatives" in Congress about this matter. (The scare quotes are because they may be elected, but they seldom if ever represent ME.)
Esky
who doesn't like the secret procedure stuff at all, and thinks it is probably not legal
HankB
Member
Esky:
The newspaper's website has the story at http://www.statesman.com/money/content/auto/epaper/editions/wednesday/news_044b04aa469b006610e0.html
but you'll probably have to register (free) to view it.
The story reads, in part:
Secrecy measure sets free accused thief
Law designed to protect sensitive information from terrorists raises questions about how far government secrecy should go.
By Rebecca Carr
WASHINGTON BUREAU
Wednesday, May 26, 2004
WASHINGTON -- Last fall, Miami prosecutors thought they had a solid case against a federal baggage screener who was caught on videotape stealing CDs from passengers' luggage.
There was just one problem: The defense would be allowed to question a key prosecution witness from the Transportation Security Administration about Miami International Airport's security and training of baggage screeners.
Fearing that the testimony could put what the government calls "sensitive security information," or "SSI," in the hands of terrorists, prosecutors dropped the charges. U.S. District Judge Adalberto Jordan set the defendant free.
. . .
It appeared in the Austin American Statesman on 5/26/04, page A17, in a story bylined by a Rebecca Carr, [email protected].
The newspaper's website has the story at http://www.statesman.com/money/content/auto/epaper/editions/wednesday/news_044b04aa469b006610e0.html
but you'll probably have to register (free) to view it.
The story reads, in part:
Secrecy measure sets free accused thief
Law designed to protect sensitive information from terrorists raises questions about how far government secrecy should go.
By Rebecca Carr
WASHINGTON BUREAU
Wednesday, May 26, 2004
WASHINGTON -- Last fall, Miami prosecutors thought they had a solid case against a federal baggage screener who was caught on videotape stealing CDs from passengers' luggage.
There was just one problem: The defense would be allowed to question a key prosecution witness from the Transportation Security Administration about Miami International Airport's security and training of baggage screeners.
Fearing that the testimony could put what the government calls "sensitive security information," or "SSI," in the hands of terrorists, prosecutors dropped the charges. U.S. District Judge Adalberto Jordan set the defendant free.
. . .
Esky
Member
Thanks, HankB--
Now I'm going to write a nice & polite letter to my state rep, Duke Cunningham (who is pro-gun, very rare in the PRK) asking him to check into the issue that we've been discussing in this thread.
My own experience with ammo confiscation (see above, if you're new to this thread) didn't cause me to think that my ammo was being stolen... but that I wasn't able to have it on the flight without the "original box" which I couldn't provide, thus leaving me with no alternative but to give it away.
Now I'm wondering about the legitimacy of the demand; if there's some 'black book' that TSA (or the airlines) goes by, which we, being mere citizens of this republic, are not allowed to inspect.
And yes, I'm aware that due to terrorism, security concerns are very important. But I'm also extremely dismayed by the loss of our civil liberties, and to not be able to even prosecute a thief because the magic wand of "sensitive security information" prevents it... well.
Personally I think the best airline security would be to allow all US citizens to open carry on airplanes & in airports, like we should be able to do anywhere in the USA. I'm willing to bet that hijacking airplanes, or stealing ammo, would not be much of a problem if that were the case.
(Yeah, I know... but I can dream, can't I?)
Esky
who would really like to see the Constitution being followed for a change
Now I'm going to write a nice & polite letter to my state rep, Duke Cunningham (who is pro-gun, very rare in the PRK) asking him to check into the issue that we've been discussing in this thread.
My own experience with ammo confiscation (see above, if you're new to this thread) didn't cause me to think that my ammo was being stolen... but that I wasn't able to have it on the flight without the "original box" which I couldn't provide, thus leaving me with no alternative but to give it away.
Now I'm wondering about the legitimacy of the demand; if there's some 'black book' that TSA (or the airlines) goes by, which we, being mere citizens of this republic, are not allowed to inspect.
And yes, I'm aware that due to terrorism, security concerns are very important. But I'm also extremely dismayed by the loss of our civil liberties, and to not be able to even prosecute a thief because the magic wand of "sensitive security information" prevents it... well.
Personally I think the best airline security would be to allow all US citizens to open carry on airplanes & in airports, like we should be able to do anywhere in the USA. I'm willing to bet that hijacking airplanes, or stealing ammo, would not be much of a problem if that were the case.
(Yeah, I know... but I can dream, can't I?)
Esky
who would really like to see the Constitution being followed for a change
Esky
Member
Moderators- Please reply
Questions for the moderators of THR (and contributors, too):
Would it be OK if I refer to this thread when writing to my congressman?
If it is OK, what is the best way of doing so?
I was thinking of summarizing the ideas contained in this thread in my letter, but it also occurred to me that I could print out the whole thread & highlight the parts I want to emphasize.
But I sure don't want to upset everybody here at THR! (Only a selected few.... )
Please advise (using PM or email, I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I already have.)
Esky
Questions for the moderators of THR (and contributors, too):
Would it be OK if I refer to this thread when writing to my congressman?
If it is OK, what is the best way of doing so?
I was thinking of summarizing the ideas contained in this thread in my letter, but it also occurred to me that I could print out the whole thread & highlight the parts I want to emphasize.
But I sure don't want to upset everybody here at THR! (Only a selected few....
)Please advise (using PM or email, I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I already have.)
Esky
Aguila Blanca
Member
Hello, Crewchief --
Are you there? I'd very much like to have your comments on the obvious discrepancy between your understanding of the TSA regulations and what it says on the TSA's own web site.
Are you there? I'd very much like to have your comments on the obvious discrepancy between your understanding of the TSA regulations and what it says on the TSA's own web site.
At Xmas in 2003, I flew from Boston to Orlando and back. I declared my gun and ammunition. My Kahr MK9 was unloaded, in a locked, hard-sided box inside my locked, hardsided suitcase. I had 25 rounds of JHP ammunition in the factory box. I had no problems at either end. Boston is not known for being gun-friendly, but the gate agent was quite cheerful. He asked that I demonstrate that it was unloaded, that was it. In Orlando, the woman asked that I demonstrate that the gun was unloaded, then walked me over to the TSA bomb-screening machine, where I stood by in case they needed to search the bag. They did, but not because of the gun or ammo -- it was the cheese board that the machine was worried about.
The airline and TSA personnel were all pleasant, polite, and helpful. I had no problems whatsoever.
Don't expect to be able to carry hundreds of rounds of ammo on an airline flight. Do carry them in a manufacturer's box. If you carry reloads, put them in a manufacturer's box (I'm sure you've got one or two kicking around in the basement), rather than a plastic reloading box. Yes, it shouldn't make any difference, but it might and why bother arguing the point?
The airline and TSA personnel were all pleasant, polite, and helpful. I had no problems whatsoever.
Don't expect to be able to carry hundreds of rounds of ammo on an airline flight. Do carry them in a manufacturer's box. If you carry reloads, put them in a manufacturer's box (I'm sure you've got one or two kicking around in the basement), rather than a plastic reloading box. Yes, it shouldn't make any difference, but it might and why bother arguing the point?
The Real Hawkeye
member
I tend to agree. Had I known I could have avoided trouble by putting them in an ammo box I would have found one, or just not brought them at all. You can bet that on the way back they were in an ammo box, i.e., the box I bought at the Walmart near the Airport.
Fish Springs
Member
Humm...December 2004. Texas to Washington State. Four people 5 guns (four shotguns and one hand gun) duck and goose loads for a week but under maximum poundage per ticket, Glock and ammo. Continental was the carrier. Terrorist Threat Level Orange--was prepared for a long trip. So we dressed business casual (dockers, golf shirts, "nice people suburan look) and headed for the airport.
Outbound--no real problem. Guns long, locked case. Pistol in locked case, water fowl ammo and hand gun ammo split between two bags--so some would still get there.
Dropped the family at curb side, parked off airport and took the shuttle in. One kid waiting with gun case, had to have my ticket to check one too many bags for tickets--needed mine for the second gun case. Perimiter search underway on airport access road. Rolled down my window, looked attentive, waived through.
Got to Seattle, picked up luggage no problem. A couple of Seattle folks openly wished they could find land in the Basin to hunt.
Return trip--only the bronze buffalo sculpure Christmas present now in my shell bag caused a problem--it was x-ray proof and really got the once over--but I can understand why a lump of metal and all of my choke tubes in a cammo carry on bag raised some eyebrows.....
TSA screener liked the BPS 3.5 he had one. Carefully searched under every piece of foam in all gun cases--I'd left all but 20 rounds for the Glock in Washington. It seemed like too many guns and too little ammo? Handgun ammo was a clear mis-match 40 SW in a 38 Long Colt box--went through with no problem.
Next year, flying with only the carry piece/ammo as I bought a Nova 3.5 and left all of the shells in Washington. Also picked up my WA State concealed carry license while on holiday.
Nice trip--no problems.
Outbound--no real problem. Guns long, locked case. Pistol in locked case, water fowl ammo and hand gun ammo split between two bags--so some would still get there.
Dropped the family at curb side, parked off airport and took the shuttle in. One kid waiting with gun case, had to have my ticket to check one too many bags for tickets--needed mine for the second gun case. Perimiter search underway on airport access road. Rolled down my window, looked attentive, waived through.
Got to Seattle, picked up luggage no problem. A couple of Seattle folks openly wished they could find land in the Basin to hunt.
Return trip--only the bronze buffalo sculpure Christmas present now in my shell bag caused a problem--it was x-ray proof
and really got the once over--but I can understand why a lump of metal and all of my choke tubes in a cammo carry on bag raised some eyebrows.....TSA screener liked the BPS 3.5 he had one. Carefully searched under every piece of foam in all gun cases--I'd left all but 20 rounds for the Glock in Washington. It seemed like too many guns and too little ammo? Handgun ammo was a clear mis-match 40 SW in a 38 Long Colt box--went through with no problem.
Next year, flying with only the carry piece/ammo as I bought a Nova 3.5 and left all of the shells in Washington. Also picked up my WA State concealed carry license while on holiday.
Nice trip--no problems.
crewchief
Member
Hawkmoon,
Yes I am here sorry but I was out of town for a few days and I forgot about this post. Anyways if you look I say that it can be in other type of containers like the kind you use for reloading and not necessarily in the original packaging. I am sorry if it seemed that way but I was trying to give advice that would be the least confusing and that would give you the least amount of hassle at the checkpoint. You see no matter what the book or regs actually say it is the sole discretion of the screening supervisor. Say something totally different from ammo like if you are carrying a big soccer trophy on board. Well to me and some other supervisor it is just a trophy and there is nothing that says you can't take it, but to another supervisor it might be something that can be used as a bludgeon or club because of the heavy base and shape and he will confiscate it. All I wanted to do is convey info that I know a majority of supervisors agree upon and I have seen supervisors disagree on the metal box issue. See every supervisor I have known has agreed that each round has to be divided unless it is belted. Now I know it does not specify this in the reg and that is why I said original containers or the plastic boxs that have individual dividers for reloading. Go ahead and put some ammo in a regular small cardboard box like it seems to read and see how far that gets you. That is why I also mentioned it being up to the supervisor if .22 bulk ammo packed loosely in small cardboard box will fly. I figure people would be smart and take the advice of somebody who was actually trained on this, enforces it, and will be the one to confiscate it instead of a vaguely written paragraph on the internet. So like I said take your cardboard box of ammo to the airport and see how far it gets you or take my advice that defines that vague paragraph a little better and I bet you will have a heck of a better chance at making it to your destination with your ammo.
Yes I am here sorry but I was out of town for a few days and I forgot about this post. Anyways if you look I say that it can be in other type of containers like the kind you use for reloading and not necessarily in the original packaging. I am sorry if it seemed that way but I was trying to give advice that would be the least confusing and that would give you the least amount of hassle at the checkpoint. You see no matter what the book or regs actually say it is the sole discretion of the screening supervisor. Say something totally different from ammo like if you are carrying a big soccer trophy on board. Well to me and some other supervisor it is just a trophy and there is nothing that says you can't take it, but to another supervisor it might be something that can be used as a bludgeon or club because of the heavy base and shape and he will confiscate it. All I wanted to do is convey info that I know a majority of supervisors agree upon and I have seen supervisors disagree on the metal box issue. See every supervisor I have known has agreed that each round has to be divided unless it is belted. Now I know it does not specify this in the reg and that is why I said original containers or the plastic boxs that have individual dividers for reloading. Go ahead and put some ammo in a regular small cardboard box like it seems to read and see how far that gets you. That is why I also mentioned it being up to the supervisor if .22 bulk ammo packed loosely in small cardboard box will fly. I figure people would be smart and take the advice of somebody who was actually trained on this, enforces it, and will be the one to confiscate it instead of a vaguely written paragraph on the internet. So like I said take your cardboard box of ammo to the airport and see how far it gets you or take my advice that defines that vague paragraph a little better and I bet you will have a heck of a better chance at making it to your destination with your ammo.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Esky, everything a person says here at THR is public domain, insofar as personal commentaries. Cites of copyrighted material are different, of course; credit must be given.
I suggest saving the URL of the first page of the thread. You can include it in an email. You can download and print out a thread and edit as you choose, or you can put it into a Word file and edit and then print it...
Art
I suggest saving the URL of the first page of the thread. You can include it in an email. You can download and print out a thread and edit as you choose, or you can put it into a Word file and edit and then print it...
Art
Andrew Rothman
Member
Crewchief:
Baloney.
FAA regs are NOT secret documents.
Seriously, how can I follow the rules if I cannot read them? I just have to take some jackbooted thug's word for what is allowed and what is not?
The sole criteria for what I may do is the TSA/FAA regs plus the airline policy.
Any other interference by you or your staff is blatantly illegal.
Baloney.
FAA regs are NOT secret documents.
Seriously, how can I follow the rules if I cannot read them? I just have to take some jackbooted thug's word for what is allowed and what is not?
The sole criteria for what I may do is the TSA/FAA regs plus the airline policy.
Any other interference by you or your staff is blatantly illegal.
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
You certainly may refer to this thread. The only caveat is that it may evolve by the time the recepient of your letter reads it.
Esky
Member
Thanks, Oleg, Pax, and Art.
I'll do my best to live up to the high standards of The High Road.
And I'll post my letter here when I've got it finished.
Esky
sharpening his quill
I'll do my best to live up to the high standards of The High Road.
And I'll post my letter here when I've got it finished.
Esky
sharpening his quill
Esky
Member
My letter so far- comments, PLEASE!
R. Denis Wauchope
[address/phone cut]
Email [email protected]
May 29, 2004
Representative Randy “Duke†Cunningham
2350 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515-0550
(202) 225-5452
(202) 225-2558 Fax
Re: Authority of TSA Staff
Dear Rep. Cunningham,
As you know from my previous letters and emails to you, I am (besides being one of your strong supporters!) very interested in matters pertaining to the Second Amendment, which interest I know you share.
Some time ago I visited Florida, where I purchased some ammunition at a gun show, which I intended to bring with me back to California for use with my revolver. I had contacted American Airlines before my flight and was told that it was acceptable to take ammunition on the flight, provided that it was placed in Hold Baggage and that I declared this ammunition at check-in. (I was not travelling with any firearms, just the ammunition.)
When I got to the check-in counter, I found that I hadn’t got the whole story; I declared the ammunition as advised, and the ticket agent called over a Transportation Security Administration (TSA) agent who then advised me that the ammo had to be “in the original box.†The ammo that I had was indeed in the original packaging… but that was two sealed plastic bags, not boxes.
According to the agent, who was quite professional and polite about the matter, there was nothing I could do except surrender this ammunition to him for disposal (back in the days before all the additional security, I would have had the option of giving it to my sister to ship to me, but nowadays family members can’t come to the check-in counter at Orlando Airport.)
I accepted the situation with as much grace as I could muster, and had forgotten about it until a “thread†came up on The High Road, an online discussion group centered around guns and the Second Amendment, in which a member had had some ammunition confiscated from him under similar circumstances.
Many of the members who took part in the discussion (found at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83369 ) thought that this sort of confiscation was simple theft. One member stated it thus: “You were robbed by an officer under color of law.†I tend to agree. (My member name on The High Road is “Esky†if you read this thread, which I hope you will.)
Then I did some investigation, and found on the TSA’s website the following, under the heading Air Travel – Prohibited Items: ( found at http://www.tsa.gov/public/interweb/assetlibrary/Permitted_Prohibited_12_18_2003.pdf )
Then, in the following chart, under the heading Guns and Firearms, I found that
From that, it appears that the agent was incorrect when he said that ammo had to be “in the original box.†From what I’ve learned, though, that’s the only way I would attempt to carry it now. Not that I have any comeback, if it is confiscated, regardless.
So now I’ve found a lot more things to be concerned about than I had started with:
• TSA agents have no limits to their authority (according to their own information as given)
• Ammunition (and guns, or any other property, even if the airline agrees to carry it) may be confiscated at the whim of any TSA agent or LEO, who does not have to justify his or her action
• Travellers carrying guns or ammo should get “authorization†(from who?) before arriving at the airport security checkpoint
• Law abiding travellers, even though they are citizens, may be subject to criminal and/or civil prosecution just for possessing legal firearms and/or ammo when checking in, regardless of packaging (unless they are “authorized†by… somebody, I guess, who probably also isn’t accountable)
• Items that are “voluntarily†abandoned cannot be recovered and will not be returned. (And who gets this property, or the profits from the sale of this so-called abandoned property?)
Please don’t get me wrong; I realize that security measures are necessary, and no one wants to ever have anything like 9-11 happening again. But I certainly don’t think that giving unlimited authority to agents of the TSA is wise, or necessary. And I also realize that the points I have raised are worst-case scenarios (at least I hope that they are!)
Don’t you think that there should be some way that an impartial board, or a judge, could determine (or review) whether confiscation of someone’s property was actually required? I’m sure you have heard from some of your other constituents that many things “go missing†out of people’s luggage, since we no longer can effectively lock our belongings—what can be done about this problem? How are the “screeners†screened?
And how can I, or anyone, possibly abide by all these regulations when so many of them are contradictory?
I would appreciate your reponse on the above matters, but would also appreciate your discretion (as I don’t want to be put on the TSA’s list of undesirables—flying’s bad enough already, and I avoid it whenever possible.)
Sincerely,
R. Denis Wauchope
AKA Esky on The High Road
OK, folks- this is it so far. I know it's too long-winded, so suggestions on cutting would be appreciated, as would suggestions on content. (The formatting here on THR is slightly different than the printed version.)
Esky
who's now going for a walk on the beach... to reflect on Memorial Day
R. Denis Wauchope
[address/phone cut]
Email [email protected]
May 29, 2004
Representative Randy “Duke†Cunningham
2350 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515-0550
(202) 225-5452
(202) 225-2558 Fax
Re: Authority of TSA Staff
Dear Rep. Cunningham,
As you know from my previous letters and emails to you, I am (besides being one of your strong supporters!) very interested in matters pertaining to the Second Amendment, which interest I know you share.
Some time ago I visited Florida, where I purchased some ammunition at a gun show, which I intended to bring with me back to California for use with my revolver. I had contacted American Airlines before my flight and was told that it was acceptable to take ammunition on the flight, provided that it was placed in Hold Baggage and that I declared this ammunition at check-in. (I was not travelling with any firearms, just the ammunition.)
When I got to the check-in counter, I found that I hadn’t got the whole story; I declared the ammunition as advised, and the ticket agent called over a Transportation Security Administration (TSA) agent who then advised me that the ammo had to be “in the original box.†The ammo that I had was indeed in the original packaging… but that was two sealed plastic bags, not boxes.
According to the agent, who was quite professional and polite about the matter, there was nothing I could do except surrender this ammunition to him for disposal (back in the days before all the additional security, I would have had the option of giving it to my sister to ship to me, but nowadays family members can’t come to the check-in counter at Orlando Airport.)
I accepted the situation with as much grace as I could muster, and had forgotten about it until a “thread†came up on The High Road, an online discussion group centered around guns and the Second Amendment, in which a member had had some ammunition confiscated from him under similar circumstances.
Many of the members who took part in the discussion (found at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83369 ) thought that this sort of confiscation was simple theft. One member stated it thus: “You were robbed by an officer under color of law.†I tend to agree. (My member name on The High Road is “Esky†if you read this thread, which I hope you will.)
Then I did some investigation, and found on the TSA’s website the following, under the heading Air Travel – Prohibited Items: ( found at http://www.tsa.gov/public/interweb/assetlibrary/Permitted_Prohibited_12_18_2003.pdf )
Then, in the following chart, under the heading Guns and Firearms, I found that
From that, it appears that the agent was incorrect when he said that ammo had to be “in the original box.†From what I’ve learned, though, that’s the only way I would attempt to carry it now. Not that I have any comeback, if it is confiscated, regardless.
So now I’ve found a lot more things to be concerned about than I had started with:
• TSA agents have no limits to their authority (according to their own information as given)
• Ammunition (and guns, or any other property, even if the airline agrees to carry it) may be confiscated at the whim of any TSA agent or LEO, who does not have to justify his or her action
• Travellers carrying guns or ammo should get “authorization†(from who?) before arriving at the airport security checkpoint
• Law abiding travellers, even though they are citizens, may be subject to criminal and/or civil prosecution just for possessing legal firearms and/or ammo when checking in, regardless of packaging (unless they are “authorized†by… somebody, I guess, who probably also isn’t accountable)
• Items that are “voluntarily†abandoned cannot be recovered and will not be returned. (And who gets this property, or the profits from the sale of this so-called abandoned property?)
Please don’t get me wrong; I realize that security measures are necessary, and no one wants to ever have anything like 9-11 happening again. But I certainly don’t think that giving unlimited authority to agents of the TSA is wise, or necessary. And I also realize that the points I have raised are worst-case scenarios (at least I hope that they are!)
Don’t you think that there should be some way that an impartial board, or a judge, could determine (or review) whether confiscation of someone’s property was actually required? I’m sure you have heard from some of your other constituents that many things “go missing†out of people’s luggage, since we no longer can effectively lock our belongings—what can be done about this problem? How are the “screeners†screened?
And how can I, or anyone, possibly abide by all these regulations when so many of them are contradictory?
I would appreciate your reponse on the above matters, but would also appreciate your discretion (as I don’t want to be put on the TSA’s list of undesirables—flying’s bad enough already, and I avoid it whenever possible.)
Sincerely,
R. Denis Wauchope
AKA Esky on The High Road
OK, folks- this is it so far. I know it's too long-winded, so suggestions on cutting would be appreciated, as would suggestions on content. (The formatting here on THR is slightly different than the printed version.)
Esky
who's now going for a walk on the beach... to reflect on Memorial Day
The Real Hawkeye
member
Good letter, and well written, but I think it is a stretch to describe what happened to us as theft, as I'm pretty sure that if we chose not to board the plane, they would have allowed us to leave with our ammo. We were just not permitted to check it in our luggage packaged as it was.
- Status
