Lee 3 Die or 4 Die ,,, Which is better ????

[wolfman480]

I am looking at building a reloading system around the Lee Classic Turrett Press and would like to know which die set would be the better of the 2. I will be loading .38 spl, .357 mag, .40 S&W, and .45ACP, which are all available in either set, but am interested in the advantages and/or disadvantages of separating the seating and crimping processes, along with opinions on the "factory crimp die".

Thanks in advance

Wolf Man

 

[mkl]

If you are just starting out and learning about handloading, I would strongly suggest you separate the seating process from the crimping process. Heck, I've been loading for over 40 years, and I still seat and crimp as separate processes. Have done it in one process, and I do know how to adjust dies, but I still like the separate steps. Perhaps if I was in a hurry to turn out a ton of ammo, but I'm not...

The calibers you mention will derive no benefit from the factory crimp die. You should use a good roll crimp on your revolver cartridges, and a decent taper crimp on your pistol cartridges.

The factory crimp die is useful for very heavy recoil cartridges to keep the bullet from moving. Think 45-70 or 454 Casuall.

 

[lgbloader]

For Pistol Calibers, all my old sets are RCBS 3 die sets. That is how I learned. Nowadays, my progressive presses are all fitted with the 4 die sets that include the crimp-only die. While I use these, I have a bit of a problem with them and here is why.

I have found that too many new handloaders are learning with the 4 die sets and getting a bit sloppy in setting the first 3 dies and then think they can fix it all with the final crimp die. I think this is bogus practice. You should be able to do just as good a job with 3 dies as with 4.

That said, get the 4 die sets becuase it is a good value. Just don't let the fourth die (Crimp-only) become a crutch to your practice of handloading.

Sorry, I guess its the "old school" in me talking.

LGB

 

[jcwit]

Thoughts on the FCD? If you're using lead bullets try this, load up a dummy round and crimp it, then pull the bullet and mike it. I'll bet it'll be undersized.

 

[wankerjake]

I had the same question and I ended up getting the 4-hole model and using the FCD to crimp as a separate step. This is what was recommended by most for reloading auto pistol calibers. I shoot 9mm the most so I went with it. I love the press and set up, and can do almost 200 rounds of 9mm an hour once I get going. This is great, but recently I attempted the seat and crimp at one time thing on my .357/.38spl loads and I think I like it better. Basically it is just one less step, so really I think it is easier. You just turn the die into the press until the crimp is where you want it, it isn't hard at all. So just today as I was cranking out some 9mm for tomorrow, I thought man, if I had the 3-hole set-up I could increase productivity by 25%. I haven't tried using the seating die to crimp 9mm as of yet becuase it doesn't gain me anything to skip that step. With the 4-hole turret you still have to turn the crank a fourth time to get back to the sizing die so I might as well crimp seperately. I haven't had any issues with over crimping with the FCD by the way. I get good accuracy with my loads using a light crimp from the FCD. It is also nice because if for some reason your .357/.38 loads are a little fat for the cylinder you can run them thru the crimp die and they will fit. Now, this shouldn't be necessary and you will have to fiddle with your crimp/process to figure why the rounds are bulging and fix it, but it has happened to me a few times and the crimp die is nice for buffing out your bulged rounds so you don't have to pull them apart (as long as they are not seriously bulged or mis-shapen). Definetely if this happens though you should fix the problem and not rely on crimping out the bulge. All in all I am happy with my set up and I do use the FCD for 9mm, and sometimes for .357/.38. But, I think it may save a little time to seat and crimp in one step for your auto loads. It may take more time to get things set up just right, but once you get rolling you may be really happy with it. I do recommend getting the 4 die set either way.

That said, get the 4 die sets becuase it is a good value. Just don't let the fourth die (Crimp-only) become a crutch to your practice of handloading.

My thoughts exactly. Basically I agree completely with lgbloader, I just had a more lengthy explanation.

 

[SASS#23149]

4 die all the way for me.
makes it easier to adjust either the oal or crimp without disturbing the other setting,and does not shave jacket material or lead shavings off of the bullet.I"ve tired the fcd but I'll stick with my 4 die setups as-is.

 

[wolfman480]

I am a newbe but am I missing something? Here is the discription of the 4 die set from the Lee web site, and it says the 4th die is the factory crimp die.


New - Lee Deluxe Pistol Die Set
The Lee Deluxe Pistol Die Set combines the world's most popular carbide three-die set with the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die at a great price. No other die set at any price will produce more reliable or accurate ammo.

By separating the seating and crimping operation, you will benefit by a greatly simplified adjustment. More importantly, the Carbide Factory Crimp Die post sizes your case assuring you that any round that passes through the die will chamber properly in your gun.
This-plus all the other exclusive features that come standard with our pistol dies,
make this the best die set money can buy! Packed in our new flat four die box, air tight hinged cover keeps your precision machined dies in perfect condition


Can this one die produce all three crimps, roll, taper, and factory? Or is the type of crimp designed into the die, because of its cal?

 

[Chicken-Farmer]

Wolfman480, the type of crimp is machined into the die itself. Typically revolver cartridges have a roll crimp while auto loading cartridges have a taper crimp. Lee is the only company that uses the "factory" crimp. My understanding of the "factory" crimp is that it acts like a final quality assurance check. If all the parameters of the previous 3 loading steps have not been met, the factory die will correct them and ensure the loaded ammo will chamber in your firearm.
Reloading should not be viewed as "how can i crank out as many rounds as possible in the shortest amount of time." Reloading should be viewed as a way to create superior quality rounds that out perform factory ammunition. The old quantity vs quality debate. If my reloaded ammunition patterns like a shotgun because i reloaded 1,000 rounds per hour, am i really getting any benefit from shooting at the range? I would rather closely control all the steps of the reloading process and ensure that all my reloaded ammo is loaded the same way every time. I may only load 200 rounds an hour, but in theory every round should behave the same way. I know that i have done everything possible to remove as many variables as i can.
I personally use RCBS 3 die sets. They do require a little more set up time, but if you read the instructions the process is very smooth.

Chicken-Farmer

 

[wolfman480]

Thanks Chicken-Farmer, from what I had read so far, I thought that was the case, but mkl's post, left me a little confused. From what some have said about the FCD, it sounds like it might be a good investment to have one made for my .480 Ruger die set.


EDIT:
Thanks to everyone for their replies.
To lgbloader: I have done a little machine work, already own a good mic and dial caliper, as a kid have stupidly blown several things sky high, and have a great respect for things that can go boom if you put them together wrong.

 

[Steve C]

IMHO:
Buy the 4 die set with the FC die for the semi auto cartridges.

Buy the 3 die set for the .38/.357 mag. The FC die isn't needed or much help with roll crimped revolver cartridges.

 

[ole farmerbuck]

I loaded a 40 today and just for the heck of it i used the fcd and kept on crimping it harder and harder till i saw the top of the case going into the bullet. I pulled the bullet and miced it. It seems like a roll crimp to me. The base of the bullet was bigger than it was at the top of the case. Quite a bit.

 

[Steve C]

The base of the bullet was bigger than it was at the top of the case. Quite a bit.

Exactly what do you think a taper crimp is?

A taper crimp is the gradual tapering of the case diameter at the case mouth.

A roll crimp is the rolling over or turning over of the case mouth into the bullet side, cannelure or crimping groove.

 

[ole farmerbuck]

Exactly what do you think a taper crimp is?

Taper. Try it and you'll se what i mean. It made it look like i was roll crimping a 357.

 

[SSN Vet]

Thoughts on the FCD?

Oh brother! Here we go again...

 

[Walkalong]

Thoughts on the FCD?

:banghead:

 

[bedwards1]

I have loaded since the late 80s and use the 3 die set for all my loading, (32acp,380,38/357,9mm,44/44mag,45acp, 45colt/454) and have had no problems with performance or crimp. If you set the dies correctly and keep them CLEAN (watch for lube and lead in the seating die) they perform as advertised. The auto indexer can be a pain, so keep spares on hand.

 

[PO2Hammer]

With cheap, plated bullets, I get less bullet distortion with separate seat and crimp dies.

I can give a good solid taper crimp without breaking through the plating if I do it separate from seating.

 

[1SOW]

I had 400 hundred poorly sized 'remanufactured' 9mm that caused periodic feed problems.
I ran them through the FCD, didn't alter oal and never had another feed problem.

One strange thing I noticed on PD 124 fmj 9mm bullets, was that the FCD "INCREASED OAL .0005". Win and Berry's 124 FMJ don't change

 

[dacavasi]

In the current sales environment, you'll be doing well to snatch up the first set you can lay hands on, irregardless of whether it's 3 or 4 die. The calibers you're talking about reloading are very hard to find die for right now and when they show up in stock, it's usually only very briefly.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

I have found that too many new handloaders are learning with the 4 die sets and getting a bit sloppy in setting the first 3 dies and then think they can fix it all with the final crimp die. I think this is bogus practice. You should be able to do just as good a job with 3 dies as with 4.

do you miss setting the choke on your car when you start it?