Lee Reloading Data

[Robert101]

I have many reloading books and I compare data from one book to another in working up loads. All of the books from Sierra, Hornady, Speer, etc. give barrel length data with the exception of the Lee 2nd Edition. So I wrote them and asked what barrel lenght was used in the 308 data.

They responded with, "All of the data we get is re-published from the major powder manufacturers. They may have barrel length factored into their calculations. Please contact them directly. Barrel length has no impact on pressure, all loads listed are safe for use in all lengths of barrels."

Apparently all of the chapters devoted to pressure and Richard Lee's observations are based upon the powder manufacturer's testing. At least this is exactly what was written in the Lee email response. I think I'll be using other reloading data books in the future or just simply search the powder manufacturers on the web. Why pay the money for republished data?

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

Apparently all of the chapters devoted to pressure and Richard Lee's observations are based upon the powder manufacturer's testing. At least this is exactly what was written in the Lee email response.

No, they didn't say Mr. Lee's observations were taken from the other manuals, just the data.

 

[Robert101]

So Lee has observations but not scientific enough or in compliance with SAAMI standards sufficient to make it to publication? So how am I to rely upon such observations? My beef is that I paid money for a reloading manual I thought was produced by Lee not republished data.

 

[rcmodel]

Lee has no ballistic lab or testing capability, and never has.

What you got is a collection of powder & bullet manufactures old data that was current at the date of the last copyright.

rc

 

[jaguarxk120]

Great way to make money on some else's work.

 

[rupe01]

I quote from the first page of "Modern Reloading" 2nd Ed.

" Comprehensive load data, compiled from all the major powder suppliers published information, sorted in logical cartridge, bullet weight, and velocity order"

I dont think they were trying to pretend that they were doing their own testing. They emphasize that in several places. But i think its a great book, and they were the first to put starting loads in volume sizes that i find useful also. I actually think its worth quite a bit more than they charge for it! And i am not connected in any way, just a grateful reloader.

 

[beatledog7]

Many people like having the data compiled in one place. As long as the data they republish is no longer copyright protected, Lee is engaging in smart and obviously legal marketing of other people's research.

Free enterprise works.

 

[Robert101]

Ok, I get and appreciate all of the responses. I'm still a little sideways on the republished powder data. Richard Lee has contributed a lot to our hobby and I hope turned a profit as well.

 

[jaguarxk120]

Reselling someone's work is not advancing our hobby of handloading.

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

haters gonna hate

 

[GT1]

Haters don't know any better.

My Lee 2nd edition is always the first book I thumb through. *shrug*

 

[snakeman]

I like loading manuals from bullet manufacturers, but hodgdon is pretty good and free.

 

[beatledog7]

Reselling someone's work is not advancing our hobby of handloading

In this case, I believe it is. If a new reloader can afford only one manual of data and still be able to afford components, Lee has just facilitated that new handloaders's entry into the hobby.

For all we know, a handloader who will someday make the next great powder breakthrough or develop the next "classic" cartridge is today getting all his load data from the Lee manual.

 

[Robert101]

Guys, I don't think anyone is hating and I do now realize that Lee does state in his book that the data is collected from powder company sources. I don't always read the preface. But there is that component of the copy of that material which leaves me at a disadvantage. I started this topic because I realized that barrel length information was missing and I felt it a necessary component for me to understand my velocity potential of the bullet. The bullet makers do include such barrel test data. Ok, yes the powder manufacturers don't include it - heck that is why I buy the reloading manuals. I felt a little short shafted by only getting a reprint of the powder data. This disclaimer was missed by me and I'd bet by others as well. Hell, write it on the front cover like "One Book / One Caliber" does.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Guys, I don't think anyone is hating and I do now realize that Lee does state in his book that the data is collected from powder company sources. I don't always read the preface. But there is that component of the copy of that material which leaves me at a disadvantage. I started this topic because I realized that barrel length information was missing and I felt it a necessary component for me to understand my velocity potential of the bullet. The bullet makers do include such barrel test data. Ok, yes the powder manufacturers don't include it - heck that is why I buy the reloading manuals. I felt a little short shafted by only getting a reprint of the powder data. This disclaimer was missed by me and I'd bet by others as well. Hell, write it on the front cover like "One Book / One Caliber" does.

Well there is one, who has posted his disdain for Lee products on numerous other threads.

The "One Book/One Caliber" hardly needs to announce they have republished data. Much of the ones I have are photocopies of their source work's pages.

I imagine Lee's sources have either given permission, taken a copyright fee from Lee or that there is some other accommodation the that allows Lee to publish the data without breaking legal of moral rules.

Lee does add to the data and advance the art and science of handloading by including (as Rupe01 pointed out) volumetric data (which is, of course, a little self-serving as Lee calibrates his dippers and auto-disk powder measure in volume. I think his other powder measure is, also.

However, the first chapters of Lee's book does contain a LOT of good food for thought and has provided many hours of education for me.

In order for barrel length to have more than the most marginal effect on maximum pressure, the pressure would have to rise as the bullet travels down the barrel. That doesn't happen after the first few inches. Once the bulk of the powder has burned (which happens while the bullet is still being accelerated in the first few inches of travel, the pressure levels off and begins to fall.

Now, Lee's self-aggrandizing is irritating, but I am willing to forgive him that. It is not the worst fault I have seen in my life.

Lost Sheep

 

[jcwit]

Now, Lee's self-aggrandizing is irritating, but I am willing to forgive him that. It is not the worst fault I have seen in my life.

LOL While this is true, I've never gone into McDonalds and read signage about how much better Burger King was.

Just saying.

 

[Duckdog]

Lee's data and observations on cast bullets and the hardness/pressure coorilation are in my opinion, just downright invaluable. Some may say not, but that's their opinion. Face it, I tend to think all of the books printed tend to "borrow" others work and recycle it. I. like some of the others above, tend to grap the Lee 2nd eddition first for some reason.

 

[T Bran]

I much prefer the Lee manual to the many others I posess. When deciding on a new powder for a caliber having the case capacity and the the % of the case fill is a major advantage to me when selecting a powder.

There is good and bad in every manual I posess which is the reason I have so many.

 

[Magnum Shooter]

LOL While this is true, I've never gone into McDonalds and read signage about how much better Burger King was.

That is for sure but, if I could find a restaurant where I could get McDonalds french-fries/milkshakes and a Whopper I would be there.

Lyman’s 49th shows a picture of a Dillon stating it is for large volume reloading thus implying it is recommended. Dillon sells RSBS single stage presses and other tools thus recommending them. I have to have respect for a company that knows when it can’t do better than it’s competitor.

 

[dragon813gt]

If you shoot oddball the Lee manual is great. You won't find the loads in one place like you do with the Lee manual. I use it along with all my other manuals. I think it has the best overview of the reloading process fir beginners. Sure Richard Lee like to toot his own horn but it's his book and he has every right to. It's always the first manual I pull out unless I'm loading a specific brand/type bullet.


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[Robert101]

I just got an email from John Lee President of Lee Precision. I beieve John is Richard Lee's son. His content was intending to clarify my initial inquiry and he did. I have to give credit to John and Lee Precision for being first class in helping me.