Lee seating die problem

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judgedelta

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I've been trying to load some 9 X 19 with Xtreme 124 gr. hollowpoints and can't get the overall consistent. Ranges from 1.107 to 1.119. I backed the die out to where the crimp ring doesn't touch the case and have cleaned the seater and am still chasing the overall. It will seat 2 or 3 to 1.113, which is what I want, and then start wandering. Anyone else had this problem? Thanks.
 
Sounds like the seater plug doesn't fit the bullet profile very well. Compressed loads can also do that.
 
I just checked about 15 of mine and they varied .006 using a Hornady seater.
 
Remove the seater plug from the die, place on bullet and measure that way. This will measure off the ogive of the bullets for a more accurate measurement. If using a progressive press, .010" difference in OAL is common.
From Lee
Overall Length (OAL) Variation

Posted by on 20 October 2011 07:43 AM

There are a number of possible causes for overall length variation. One is the way it is measured. If you measure overall length from the tip of the bullet to the base of the case, remember to subtract the variation due to bullet length tolerance. The bullets will vary in length due to manufacturing tolerances (bullets with exposed lead noses are the worst in this regard) and this will add to the overall cartridge length variation. Remember that the bullet seater plug does not (or shouldn't) contact the tip of the bullet when seating, but contacts farther down the ogive. For a more accurate seating depth measurement, take the seater plug out of the bullet seating die, place it on top of the cartridge and measure from the base of the case to the top of the seater plug.

Another possible cause for bullet seating depth variation is seating and crimping at the same time when trying to apply a firm crimp to untrimmed cases. Variation in case length also causes variation in the amount of crimp applied. Long cases get a heavier crimp than short ones. When seating and crimping at the same time, the crimp is formed as the bullet is seated into the case. The crimp will form sooner on a long case, and therefore the bullet will not be seated as deeply. The solution is to seat and crimp in a separate step (the Lee Factory Crimp die is good for this) and/or trim cases to a uniform length.

The amount of force required to cycle a progressive press varies with the number of cases in the shell plate. When the shell plate is full, it is harder to lower the lever than when there are one or two cases present. This can lead to variation in cartridge overall length because there are different loads placed on the working parts of the press. When the shell plate is full, seating depth will be slightly long, because the load is higher and all of the clearances are taken up. With the shell plate nearly empty, the load is not great enough to squeeze out these clearances, and the seating depth is short.

A potential solution for this on progressive presses is to turn the sizing die in far enough so that the carrier is stopping on the bottom of the die. This removes clearance problems when no sizing but yet seating / crimping is occurring. Take special care not to turn the die in further than to just touch the shell plate and possibly just a tad more. About 1/4th of turn more is all you want to go, turning the sizing die in too far causes other problems.
 
I have the same die(s) and it seats every known 9 mm bullet I every loaded.

You have to seat the actually die body correctly or it will start to crimp and in the process seat the bullet a fraction more.

Do you have the LEE manual,? if so it is explained in better terms on how to set it up rather than the die instructions (save me a lot of typing):)

Bottom of page 75 and top of 76

This only applies if you are using a separate crimp die.

If you are seating and crimping with the same die set your COL to.55 longer than what you want. When it crimps it will push the bullet that much further.
 
A potential solution for this on progressive presses is to turn the sizing die in far enough so that the carrier is stopping on the bottom of the die.
This may cause the problem, if the deck height at each station of a progressive shell plate is different. Standard is .125" or in that area on a shell plate.
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I load on an LNL, but I don't size while loading, which helps the OAL variance a good bit.
 
Thanks all for the suggestions. I am loading on a Rockchucker. I have loaded .38 special, .357, .44 mag. 40 S & W and .45 ACP with no problems. 9mm is the only one with the wandering oal. It appears to me that if the die (seater plug) comes down to the same distance from the top of the shell holder every time, the cartridge should be the same length no matter of variations in the case length or length of the bullet. I can understand variations if you change bullets, due to the different profile on the seater, but I can't understand variations when using the same bullets.
 
I have one, thanks. I still can't understand that if the height of the die is constant and the travel of the ram (and shellholder) is constant, why the length of the cartridge is not constant. It would appear that if the part of the die (the plug) contacting the bullet was flat, the length of the cartridge would still be the same. There is a variable in there somewhere I haven't picked up. The load isn't compressed, so there shouldn't be springback, although I did run some cartridges through the die a couple of times to get them to fit in the sizing gage (gauge) uniformly?
 
Just as a suggestion so others don't misunderstand your question, the proper abbreviation and terminology for describing seating depth measurements from case head to the tip of the bullet, is either "OAL" Over All Length, or COAL Casing Over All Length, I've also heard it referred to it as COL also. Just a friendly advisory, and not intended to embarrass or insult your integrity.

Are you using the "FCD" or "Factory Crimp Die"? Or are you just seating them with a standard seat and crimp die?

If your using the FCD, it might be the culprit. I've never used one that I can recall, but if I had a nickel for every time I've heard someone having problems getting them adjusted correctly, I would probably be a wealthy man by now.

Other wise, make sure the ring nut is tightened down good and snug. Lee dies have that rubber insert washer type set up, which if the washer isn't compressed real good and snug against the press, it can cause the entire die to push up when seating, and, or, crimping. This right here could cause a significant variance in "OAL" lengths.

Another possible cause could be that the crimp feature is creating the variance. I'll explain how this happens. If your seating and crimping in the same step, and the brass isn't all trimmed to the same length, the crimp ring will crimp will cause bullets to get seated at varying depths, thus causing variations in finished OAL's.

There are two different methods of correcting this problem.
1. You can trim your brass to the same lengths, then with the ram at full extension, and an empty piece of brass in the shell holder, adjust the die body down until it is just making contact with the case mouth. Then with the seating stem adjusted so it just barely seats a bullet, adjust the die body and seating stem down in small or necessary increments until your crimp and "OAL" are within desired spec.. This is a much more cumbersome and difficult method for most, but it has worked well for me, as I trim all my brass.

2. Or you can back the entire seating die out sufficiently far enough to ensure that the die isn't making any contact with an empty case mouth when the ram is at full extension, then back it out another turn or so to make sure it won't crimp even the longest piece of brass Then place a bullet in a case mouth, seat and adjust the seating stem ONLY until you have the desired "OAL". Then back the seating stem out far enough to ensure it won't can't make any contact with the bullets. Then begin adjusting the die body down until you are crimping to the desired spec.. But because not all the brass will be the same lengths, you'll still have to deal with some inconsistencies with crimps, that's just how it is when not using trimmed brass.

BTW, and just so it doesn't spur an argument about the right or wrong way to load rimless cartridges. Just about every reloader I know DOES NOT TRIM rimless AL-ing cartridges. It's more of a personal preference thing, IMO, rather than a right or wrong way of a reloading procedure. I just happen to think it's worth the extra time to trim, and there is no doubt some additional time involved. But it allows me to seat and crimp in one single step, vs dealing with inconsistent oal's, neck tension variations, and variations in crimps.

FYI, oal variations in particular with the high pressure 9mm cartridge and othe high pressure cartridges such as .40 cal. can result in significant, and even excessive to the extent of concerning pressure spikes, when oal varies by .010" or more. This fact alone has reinforces my decision to trim my brass for more than 30 years.

GS
 
I had already seated and run the FCD on this batch of 40. I discovered they were all long and stuck over the hood when put in the barrel. I was just wanting to adjust the OAL down from 1.142 (or thereabouts) to 1.113 which is about a hundredth short of level on the hood of the barrel. I can adjust down to 1.113 on one, then run 2 or 3 at that length and the next one will 1.106 or 1.119 or anywhere in between. I got all of these down to "plunk" level, but it's frustrating not to understand where the variable is. I am only tightening the die down by hand against the O-ring, but I can get it pretty tight. There is, I think, also an O-ring in the seating adjustment that screws down on the stem. Could there be that much play in both O-rings? I use RCBS dies with rifle cartridges and there is never more than a thousand or two variance...

Is there something inherent in re-seating an already crimped pistol bullet which can cause the OAL to vary in this fashion? Thanks.
 
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1. 9mm cases are notoriously varied in thickness and web taper, and the Lee flare die isn't wide enough or long enough to uniform the interior of the case. So your bullets will have varying levels of work left during the seating process.
2. Plated bullets are often very soft lead and can deform during seating.
3. Hollowpoints can be more fragile than RN and can deform during seating.

Possible solutions:
1. Seat and crimp in two steps.
2. Make/order a custom seating plug to fit the nose profile of your bullet.
3. Sort your brass and try using only R-P 9mm cases. If that significantly improves your OAL consistency, then an aftermarket expander plug can be of benefit.
 
don't forget that COAL problems can also be due to the bullets not having a consistent Ogive shape from bullet to bullet.

I've had this problem on cheap 55 gr FMJBT bullets for my AR.
 
I do seat and crimp in two steps. I also have a seater for this bullet. I have not tried sorting the brass, which I will do next. Also, I checked and .004 inch is about the width of a human hair (average-generic), so I don't think that much off will do much damage as long as the bullet isn't jammed into the lands. Thanks all for the help and patience. JD
 
don't forget that COAL problems can also be due to the bullets not having a consistent Ogive shape from bullet to bullet.

I've had this problem on cheap 55 gr FMJBT bullets for my AR.


^^^^This. You might have a batch of bullets that don't have a consistent profile. Remember that the seater works off the bullet ogive. It doesn't seat from the tip of the bullet. I could be wrong about this but I'm not aware of the FCD causing OAL problems. It's pretty easy to adjust and only affects the amount of crimp as far as I know.
 
Is there something inherent in re-seating an already crimped pistol bullet which can cause the OAL to vary in this fashion? Thanks.

Because you have already taper crimped the case, the turned in case mouth may "dig in" to the bullet or it may "slide" or a combination of movements as the bullet is seated further into the case. If it digs in and doesn't slide, there will be some spring back and the COAL will be longer. If it only slides, then the COAL will be shorter since there will be no spring back. If there is a combination of sliding and digging in between the bullet and case mouth, the COAL will be in between as well. That's why re-seating an already crimped bullet adds variation in your reloads.

You didn't say, but was the COAL consistent before you tried to re-seat the bullets to shorten the COAL? If so, you should be good-to-go in the future.
 
COAL was not consistent, either. I haven't figured out how to set the COAL on some of these bullets from small manufacturers with no published data. Just have to take the barrel out and trial and error, I guess.
 
Ya, SSN Vet hit on another issue, that being the olgive. I have no idea how inconsistent or consistent those plated bullets are in this respect, but I do see some pretty large variations with name brand jacketed bullets, so it's entirely possibly this could be one of the culprits.

Maybe record the oal of several seated bullets, then pull and re-seat them, if if they produce near identical oal measurements. I would think this would at least help confirm, or help rule out oal as a possible culprit.

GS
 
take the stem out of the die, then, take one of your bullets and push it up through the die. it should go all the way through without any hangups. try it with three or four bullets. if the bullets are hanging up, you will get varying seating depths.

the lee precision seating die is tight. I cannot seat .432" bullets in a lee 44 mag seating die (the die swages them down to .430"). the .430" bullets seat just fine.

murf
 
COAL was not consistent, either. I haven't figured out how to set the COAL on some of these bullets from small manufacturers with no published data. Just have to take the barrel out and trial and error, I guess.

I haven't used the Lee service for a custom seating die, but I developed a method of making my own (http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/reloads/126434-bullet-seating-plugs.html#post1832955) that I think works well.

I was having similar problems with the Berry's plated 124 gr HP which led me to creating a custom seating plug which guides not just on the ogive but also on the metplat of the bullet helping square up the bullet as it is seated and keeping the metplat perpendicular to the centerline of the cartridge. If a bullet with a wide metplat, like a flat point or HP, is seated slightly canted, it will show up in COAL variation (remember, we are talking very small differences of just a few thousandths) that you would not see with a RN bullet.

I haven't used the X-Treme 9mm HP yet but from the web sites it looks more like it is based on a RN ogive and the Berry's I've been using is what they now call the Target HP and has a TC ogive. I have used the X-Treme HP in .357 and with the homemade seating die I have been able to get pretty consistent COAL.
 
I've used X-Treme 9mm and .45 RN bullets for a long time and my Lee seating die does a very good job of squaring up the bullet as its being seated even in those isolated instances when the bullet tips over 10-15 degrees while it's being seated.
 
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