Legal Considerations of Posting on the Internet

Status
Not open for further replies.

Kleanbore

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
17,484
The ST&T Rules sticky contains the following:

Everyone who posts here or anywhere else on the Internet should understand that such posts are permanent, and they may be subject to discovery in legal proceedings at any time in the future. Should any member ever find himself or herself involved in such proceedings, posts containing comments that could be interpreted unfavorably could prove damaging.

You do not want to publish anything ... where it may be made available to plaintiffs and investigators, that you should more properly tell only to an attorney in confidence in a privileged legal communication.

For those who may not be well versed in the reasons behind this, some additional explanation my be helpful.

First, everyone should understand that if one posts in a public forum on the Internet for anyone in the world with Internet access to read, or when one sends a company email for that matter, one can have no expectation of privacy. Second, electronic postings can be and have been traced back to the originator, authenticated, and used both to facilitate further investigations and as evidence. One's computer may be seized, or subpoenas may be issued to others. Also, investigators can use search engines as well as anyone else.

There are two kinds of situations in which a statement made on the Internet or put in email or posted on one of the various social networks can come back to haunt the originator.

The first involves posts of the "this happened to me" genre. If an incident that could lead to an investigation and/or additional legal proceedings has occurred, anything said about it on the Internet could either be used as evidence or to lead investigators to other facts or information that could be used as evidence that could prove damaging to the originator. For that reason, it is very important to exercise caution in terms of what one posts.

This can apply to either criminal or civil proceedings or both.

It is important to understand that the risks involved may even apply in cases that have not yet been pursued by law enforcement. A statement such as "I drew my gun and told him to get off my property" may be all that is needed to start or provide additional evidence for an investigation that might otherwise have gone nowhere.

In case it is not understood by some, the fact that the investigation of an incident appears to have been "closed" does not mean that the actor is free of risk. A statement by an officer that one "did the right thing", or even a decision by a prosecutor or grand jury to not pursue charges, is not a guarantee against further action. For one thing, new persons may replace others. More importantly, however, new evidence can be brought to light, and a posting here or anywhere on the Internet may just be the thing to make that happen.

The second risk involves the possible use of a statement posted on the Internet before an incident has occurred.

One way that such messages may be used is to indicate state of mind.

In the event that a person becomes involved in an incident in which the evidence supporting justification is sparse or is contradicted in part by other evidence, or an inconsistency casts doubt upon the credibility of the actor, anything that might be used to indicate that the actor had been predisposed to the use of deadly force could prove very damaging indeed.

Statements such as "anyone on my property is fair game", "in my state the law allows me to shoot anyone who...", "if he gets away he might harm someone else", "shoot the loudest one", etc., to cite a few hypothetical examples, can be discovered and used in court years after they were made.

This is not just conjecture. For a real example, consider that in a highly publicized case the defendant, who was a firearms instructor, had used training materials containing words such as “always cheat; always win,” and a statement to the effect that one should treat every one else in a polite manner while simultaneously having a plan to kill them. These statements may serve with a proper effect in an instructional setting, but taken out of context, they can be and have been used with damaging effect in a trial setting.

A second, and perhaps more common, way that pre-existing messages may impact an investigation or trial involves the establishment of a prior relationship between the parties. That evidence could either be used to establish motive or, if an actor claiming self defense has denied that such a relationship existed, to raise questions about the actor's credibility.

There may be those who will consider this, or any other tactics used in a case in which an actor who has used deadly force and who believes his actions to have been justified, to be unfair or perhaps characterize such tactics as those of an "overzealous prosecutor". It is important to keep in mind three things: (1) an investigation and/or a subsequent trial will involve anything relevant that can be gathered after the event and nothing else, and such statements may well be relevant; (2) the fact that the actor considers himself to be an upstanding citizen who is therefore a "good guy" will have little bearing on the case; and very importantly, (3) if the totality of the evidence does indicate that a shooting was not justified under the law, we expect our prosecutors to obtain a conviction.

It is impossible to list everything that could be taken out of context and used against one in a criminal or civil proceeding. We can only urge the use of caution in posting.
 
Last edited:
Bloodlust and chest thumping are not a viable alterative to using the grey matter.

It's rare around here, but I do see it sometimes. Not only is it not a viable alternative, but also undermines any legitimacy that person may have as a private gun owner.
 
remember if they search your house they may take your computer. and their nerds are better than our nerds

Yeah...I used to be one of those nerds. .FED computer resources are pretty impressive if they find a reason to focus on obtaining your information.
 
How would a self defense shooting be a reason for the police to confiscate your home computer?
 
Excellent post Kleanbore.

Owen Sparks said:
...reason for the police to confiscate your home computer?

A couple of hypotheticals:

1) You post an "after action review" about the shooting

or

2) There has been an ongoing conflict, e.g. "My neighbor threatened to shoot my dog if I didn't contain it, I'm afraid things could escalate," which you posted BEFORE shooting your neighbor in self-defense, but which relates to possible motive/could be used to assign blame etc.

IANAL but I think in either of those cases, it's fair to assume a court might assume there might be further relevant info to the case on your PC. Especially if you deny posting it, in which case they might want to check the truthfulness of the claim.
 
Owen Sparks said:
How would a self defense shooting be a reason for the police to confiscate your home computer?
It's not self defense unless and until the DA and/or the grand jury have satisfied themselves that it is. Until then, it's just a shooting and will be investigated as a crime.

The authorities know you shot the guy and that you are claiming that you did so in self defense. Maybe they'll accept that right away. But maybe they won't.

And if they don't, they will be conducting a normal, criminal investigation. That will usually include a search of your home and confiscation of possible evidence, including your computer.
 
I am lucky to live in a state with a strong Castle Doctrine. Not only can I legally shoot an intruder, I am also protected from any potential civil action that he or his family might attempt to file. There is also no duty to retreat, even outside my property.
 
How would a self defense shooting be a reason for the police to confiscate your home computer?
"Self-defense" is a relative term!

One may see himself as defending his home, while a prosecutor may see the homeowner as someone who can be portrayed to a jury as a modern-day Procrustes.

This does not only apply to HD, where castle law may have an effect.

Prior actions CAN be used to show intent and/or premeditation. Mas Ayoob, among others, has written of this quite a bit.

Consider the case of my LE colleague, who had already been involved in two line-of-duty shootings, killed yet a third suspect. All of the dead men were of African descent. (All of the shootings were, by just about anyone's definition, righteous use of deadly force, when viewed in isolation, without
adding any ethnic angle.) My colleague's prior off-color jokes, right-wing political views, plus his
enthusiasm for firearms, particularly attending the SOF three-gun match, were used to portray him
as a genocidal serial killer, using his LE status as a shield as he hunted for opportunities to kill black men. While cleared, in the end, I would hate to think of the size of his legal bills. Plus, he is still baited, sometimes, nearly two decades later, living in a different metropolitan area, in a completely different occupation.
 
BTW, my colleague, mentioned above, performed his LE duties well before the age of the Internet. Finding information about his prior acts took leg-work and interviews. The Internet is a gift to today's prosecutors and plaintiff's attorneys, who no longer have to send investigators afield to locate witness and other evidence. Search engines provide instant indicators where to start looking.

There is at least one website, for example, dedicated to citizens who have been killed by police officers, complete with cross-references. My colleague has three entries there; I have two. I don't want a third!
 
Posted by Owen Sparks: How would a self defense shooting be a reason for the police to confiscate your home computer?

Fiddletown nailed it with this:

It's not self defense unless and until the DA and/or the grand jury have satisfied themselves that it is. Until then, it's just a shooting and will be investigated as a crime.

The authorities know you shot the guy and that you are claiming that you did so in self defense. Maybe they'll accept that right away. But maybe they won't.

And if they don't, they will be conducting a normal, criminal investigation. That will usually include a search of your home and confiscation of possible evidence, including your computer.


Rexter's explanation is also on point:

One may see himself as defending his home, while a prosecutor may see the homeowner as someone who can be portrayed to a jury as a modern-day Procrustes.

This does not only apply to HD, where castle law may have an effect.

Prior actions CAN be used to show intent and/or premeditation. Mas Ayoob, among others, has written of this quite a bit.

Perhaps this will provide some nourishing food for thought on the question.

I am lucky to live in a state with a strong Castle Doctrine. Not only can I legally shoot an intruder, I am also protected from...
Your castle doctrine, like all others, reduces your burden in a defense of justification. It does not give you carte blanche to shoot someone in your home. Should investigations indicate(1) the existence a prior relationship from which motive could be inferred, or (2) that the intruder had been attempting to depart, your assertion that you could "legally shoot an intruder" would account for nothing.

Finally, that is precisely the kind of comment that one does not want to hear repeated over and over by the prosecution as they build a case against him or her. The example in the OP was "in my state the law allows me to shoot anyone who...".

Same thing, I'm afraid.
 
Owen Sparks asked;
How would a self defense shooting be a reason for the police to confiscate your home computer?

One of the first things the investigators are going to look into is any kind of prior relationship between the person claiming self defense and the "victim". Violence between strangers is rare. Since so much communication is online these days it will be perfectly reasonable for the police to seize your personal computer and smart phone to look for any evidence of a prior relationship.

It was the prior relationship between the homeowner and the shooter that caused the investigation in this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=597006
to go on as long as it did.

Cookies leading back to posts on THR or other forums where comments were made could lead the investigators and the prosecutor to look at the situation differently then they might otherwise.

Don't post anything you wouldn't want your name attached to if it was the lead story on the news is a good rule of thumb.
 
Owen Sparks said:
I am lucky to live in a state with a strong Castle Doctrine. Not only can I legally shoot an intruder, I am also protected from any potential civil action that he or his family might attempt to file. There is also no duty to retreat, even outside my property.
Clearly you have no idea what a Castle Doctrine really means and how it works.

See Jeff White's thread here discussing how a Castle Doctrine is not a get-out-of-jail-free card.

And in this post I discuss how Florida's Castle Doctrine and Immunity laws work (and most others are similar):
fiddletown said:
...[2] In Florida, under Ch 776.012, one may use lethal force if, "...He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony...." That is the core basis upon which the use of lethal force may be justified. It's fairly consistent with the general rule, although it may be a little narrower some places and broader in others (notably in Texas).

[3] Self defense is an affirmative defense. That means that if someone is charged with a criminal use of force, it is his burden to (1) claim that his use of force was legally justified under the applicable standards; and (2) at least put on sufficient evidence that his conduct under the circumstances satisfied all elements of the justified use of force (i. e., a prima facie case).

[4] So in Florida, one charged with some crime of violence, say aggravated assault, because of his use of lethal force and claiming he has no criminal liability for his acts because his use of lethal was justified, must show, among other things, that the core requirement as set out in Ch 776.012, his reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm, etc., was satisfied.

[5] But under Ch 776.013, "A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if...." (emphasis added) That "if" there at the end is very significant. In fact, it's key. We'll be discussing the "if" a bit later. But what does, in the legal realm "is presumed" really mean?

[6] A presumption is a rule that affects evidence and burden of proof in court. Ordinarily, one who asserts something in court will have the burden of proving, by presenting good evidence, that certain facts supporting that assertion are true. But sometimes the law might allow one of those facts to be accepted as true without specific evidence of that fact if the party with the burden of proof shows that certain other facts are true. So the party might be entitled under a rule of law to have fact A presumed to be true if facts B, C, and D are shown to be true, even if the party produces no direct evidence that fact A is true.

[7] So looking at the the Florida self defense situation, a person in his home who has used lethal force against another person, and who claims that he was justified in doing so, might not have to actually present evidence that he was in reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm (he might be presumed to have been in reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm). But, as stated in Ch 776.013, he's off the hook for presenting that evidence only if he shows that other facts were true. That's the "if" mentioned above.

[8] So under Ch 776.013, in order for one to be entitled to a presumption that he was in reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm, he will need to establish with good evidence that a number of other facts were true. Some of those facts are:

  • "...The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, ... or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, ..and..."
  • "...The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred...."

[9] Ch 776.013 also specifies an number of situations in which the presumption would not apply, including:

  • "...The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, ... to further an unlawful activity;..."
  • "...The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer,..."

[10] And any legally available presumption is rebuttable. That means that even though one may be entitled to the benefit of a presumption as to a certain fact, the other side may try to prove that fact is not actually true. So, for example, even if you might have been entitled to a presumption that you were reasonably in fear for your life, the prosecutor could put on evidence and try to show that under the particular circumstances, a reasonable person could not have been reasonably in fear for his life.

Many States have statutes similar to Florida's Ch 776.013. To get the presumption, you still must be able to establish certain facts, and the presumption can be rebutted.

A word about immunity. In Florida, Ch 776.032 says, "...A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 [defense of others] is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution...." But if there's dispute about whether your use of force was "as permitted" under the referenced statutes (i. e., the DA doesn't think you were legally justified and he thinks he can prove it), you will still be prosecuted, and your trial will be about whether you can show that your use of force was "as permitted" under the applicable statutes. That's generally how these immunity statutes work.

The bottom line is that f you shoot someone and claim self defense, you will always need to establish that your intentional act of violence on another human was justified. A Castle Doctrine law can entitle you to some evidentiary presumptions that can sometimes help you to do that. But you will still need to establish certain threshold facts to get the benefit of any presumptions, and all presumptions are rebuttable.
 
Your point regarding the requirements for presumption is interesting, Fiddletown, and if you'll indulge me for just a moment: When the term "unlawfully and forcefully entering" (emphasis mine) is used, does this mean that an unlocked door or window, that requires no force to pass through, does not satisfy the requirement, even though entry is unlawful? Must force always be used?
 
As the old answer fits, we'll use it again: "YES! But not YOUR attorney."
I'm not familiar with the old answer. I'm just curious if anyone has any actual experience of a post on an internet forum being used as evidence in a self defense shooting, particularly one in an individuals own home.
 
I also would like to know if anyone has ever had a computer confiscated after shooting an intruder. An acquaintance that lives in my county had to shoot a man in his front yard. The bad guy’s girl had left him and moved in with my acquaintance. The estranged boyfriend called saying that he was coming to the acquaintances house to kill him. Of course he had the girl call the sheriff while he went out front with a shotgun and took cover. The bad guy came roaring up in a jeep and the acquaintance unloaded on him.

When law enforcement finally arrived they found the bad guy dead behind the wheel of the Jeep with a loaded shotgun across his lap. The girl corroborated the story and after several hours of investigation, crime scene photos and interviews the deputies returned the acquaintances shotgun and left. They were satisfied that he was in fear for his life and acted accordingly. That’s all there was to it.
 
Posted by SnowBlaZeR2I I'm not familiar with the old answer [("YES! But not YOUR attorney.")]. I'm just curious if anyone has any actual experience of a post on an internet forum being used as evidence in a self defense shooting, particularly one in an individuals own home.
Let's make one thing perfectly clear: if it is a matter of legal precedent, it makes absolutely no difference at all whether it has to do with what one has claimed to have been a self defense shooting or with something else altogether.

The legal principles here apply whether the case involves compliance with a regulatory issue involving clean air, clean water, export compliance, non discrimination, restraint of trade, or whatever; a contract dispute; tax evasion or insider trading claims any other type of fraud; or conspiracy.

And yes, many people have actual experience in this area.

I hope this answers the question clearly.
 
SnowBlaZeR2 said:
...I'm just curious if anyone has any actual experience of a post on an internet forum being used as evidence in a self defense shooting, particularly one in an individuals own home...
I'm familiar with investigative procedures. If the police and/or the DA think it's warranted, they will look at everything -- including computer records and documents. See Jeff White's post 14.

Owen Sparks said:
...That’s all there was to it...
So what? That's one incident. Not every situation is the same. Not every incident is the same. An anecdote isn't data.
 
Let's make one thing perfectly clear: if it is a matter of legal precedent, it makes absolutely no difference at all whether it has to do with what one has claimed to have been a self defense shooting or with something else altogether.

The legal principles here apply whether the case involves compliance with a regulatory issue involving clean air, clean water, export compliance, non discrimination, restraint of trade, or whatever; a contract dispute; tax evasion or insider trading claims any other type of fraud; or conspiracy.

And yes, many people have actual experience in this area.

I hope this answers the question clearly.
Legal principles? A Facebook picture used in a civil case, does not give precedent to a random post on an internet forum being used in a criminal trial. A legal precedent allows for use in a similar case only. This is the reason for my question. If it has been brought into a court before, I'm curious as to the outcome.

If anyone has any actual experience to share, or even just a link, that would be great. Otherwise, I'm going to respectfully remain skeptical. :)
 
I'm familiar with investigative procedures. If the police and/or the DA think it's warranted, they will look at everything -- including computer records and documents. See Jeff White's post 14.

So what? That's one incident. Not every situation is the same. Not every incident is the same. An anecdote isn't data.
Unless I missed it, neither his post, nor the article makes mention of any computer records being investigated. Wouldn't a judge need to think it's warranted first though?

I want to take a second and point out that I'm not being argumentative, I'm simply offering a different view and providing for some friendly discussion. Anyone can feel free to check me, as I should probably get to sleep anyways. :)

*edit*
I'm going to bed anyways. Night fellas.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top