Legal Considerations of Posting on the Internet

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Kleanbore said:
...privacy and anonymity, can also be very important to our members. If one is applying for a job or for admittance to an educational institution, or if one is under consideration for a promotion, or should one decide to seek public office, any adverse information that becomes known about that person can have a devastating impact upon his or her prospects....
Apropos of that, see this.

You are, of course, free to communicate how and what you wish, by your speech, by your actions, what you may post on the Internet, how you act and what you say in public (the Internet is a public place); but that does not mean that doing so is without social consequences.

You may be free to "communicate", but others are free to either pay attention or not. And others are also free to form opinions about you, your credibility, character, values, or beliefs based on how and what you "communicate."

How you present yourself to the world is up to you. But you can't complain when people form impressions of you or make judgments about you based on the way you do present yourself to the world.
 
Well said, Kleanbore.... If you want to give your attorney indigestion or maybe something worse let him/her know that you've said something your regret on the 'net.... I was taught many years ago that email was short for "evidence" mail. The only thing that's changed in the years since email and the 'net became a daily fact of life.... is the ability of the tech types to find, retrieve, and identify the sender of all types of transmissions.

What's really unfortunate is to find yourself having to act against someone you (or someone with you...) has previously threatened, either in person or by email, or by something posted on the 'net. Ask me how I know....
 
This about some yahoo who instigated a confrontation with LE for political reasons and then blabbed about details of an event that actually occurred. His actions were politically motivated and he was perceived as a right wing extremist. If he himself did not reveal his internet activity, which seems highly likely considering his actions, of course they would suspect it given his political motivations. Or somebody, likely a cop, on a board who read his post about the event reported his comments. I don't see this as proving LE are likely to secure a warrant to secure one's computer with no probable cause to support the existence of relevant online activity after a shooting claimed to be in self defense. If some evidence is present to suggest online activity existed that was related, sure, its almost certain to happen. I agree, we should all err on the side of caution in what we say here as it costs nothing to do so. But situations that will result in online activity being investigated seem to be the type that one brings on themself; just like this guy.
 
Posted by JustinJ: I don't see this as proving LE are likely to secure a warrant to secure one's computer with no probable cause to support the existence of relevant online activity after a shooting claimed to be in self defense.

...If some evidence is present to suggest online activity existed that was related, sure, its almost certain to happen.
You have missed the point completely.

First, the warrant need not be to secure one's computer. In the case at hand, the court order requested information that enabled the defendant in a civil case to find and obtain digital data stored on servers that did not belong to the plaintiff.

Second, it is not necessary for a court to be given an indication that a plaintiff, civil defendant, criminal suspect, or criminal defendant had posted on the Internet, or for that matter, had written memoranda, sent intra company or Internet emails, made telephone calls, written checks, made notes, purchased securities, posted on Facebook, searched for something on Google, or posted on THR, for the court to include any of those media in the scope of a subpoena or in a court order instructing a party to a civil suit to supply information regarding any of those media. The question at hand is whether there are legal grounds to request relevant information that fits within a particular scope, and if the answer is yes, the court order is likely to be very far reaching indeed.

Having seen subpoenas, I can attest to that: "letters, memoranda, files, emails, meeting minutes, notes, appointment calendars, computer print outs, telephone records, or any other information that pertains to...".

But situations that will result in online activity being investigated seem to be the type that one brings on themself; just like this guy.
Maybe, maybe not. The situations that result in online activity (or any other communications) being investigated may or may not involve culpability. All that is necessary to send investigators out to search for relevant information is something in the evidence that is readily apparent, including an indication of ambiguity among same.



Does this help?
 
I have never told anyone, not even my wife that I post on this forum or even the ficticious name name I use here. Not because it is a secret but just because she is not interested. If I move my lap top over to my brothers house or stash it in my gym locker after a questionable incident how could anyone possibly know what I posted here, as no one even knows THAT I post here. Sure they could get my IP address but if this perticular lap top is gone how can anything be recovered? Seriously, I'm curious.
 
I have never told anyone, not even my wife that I post on this forum or even the ficticious name name I use here. Not because it is a secret but just because she is not interested. If I move my lap top over to my brothers house or stash it in my gym locker after a questionable incident how could anyone possibly know what I posted here, as no one even knows THAT I post here. Sure they could get my IP address but if this perticular lap top is gone how can anything be recovered?...
Don't engage in "a questionable incident" and you'll never have to find out.

There's no way any of us can tell you how (or if) some good investigators might be able to uncover your secrets, because we don't know all the facts. But everything any of us do will leave some sort of trace. A good investigator is good at finding each little bit of that trace and putting them together with other bits. It's sort of like assembling a jigsaw puzzle.

So if the police are really interested in you and your actions, a good investigator will look at everything he can find and talk with a lot of people you might have had contact with. And maybe he'll find an ethernet cable, or something else to indicate that you have or had a computer. And maybe he'll talk with someone who says something that leads him to someone else who leads him to someone else, etc.

And maybe all of this will lead him to identify places you might have secreted or disposed of your computer. And he'll be very interested in the fact that you had a computer and now seem to have gone to some trouble to ditch it. That could help him get a warrant to search various places you might have ditched it.

That's how cases are made -- little piece by little piece. And are you really good enough to maintain control of everyone who might know something about your activities?
 
By the way, you can use any name you choose.... the "computer address" for that particular name will lead directly to (I'll let you figure out the remainder). As a matter of principle I won't say anything on the 'net (or anywhere else) that I wouldn't be perfectly willing to put my name to. That's pretty good advice for any that might want it....
 
[/Q
That's how cases are made -- little piece by little piece. And are you really good enough to maintain control of everyone who might know something about your activities? UOTE]

Evidence gathering by interview and interrogation has been enhanced by electronic media and the proliferation of video surrveilance, since I left the P.D. in 1988. Google can get a wealth of info ,as can facebook if you are silly enough to use it. And cameras are everywhere.

After I left the P.D. I went to nursing school, my last real job before retiring in 08 was as a nurse at a detention center. One day I get called to personel and asked about a incident tied to my name they found in a routine google search. Simple answer, they left out a vowel in my long 4 sylable ethnic name and came up with someone else. I was happy to watch them do a search with the right spelling and find very little.
 
Considering my screen name, I tend to play nice in Teh Internetz. I've spent the last 15 years of my life in IT. Posting on a Usenet forum or a web forum is like writting the same thing on the wall of a popular public restroom just without the annonimity.
 
As long as we're on the topic of "Internet anonymity". There are multiple things you can do to mask your anonymity. Don't make it easy such that someone can google your name and come up with your posts.

Don't use the same screen name on every forum. If you ever give up a hint of your identity on one, don't let all your screen names be compromised.

Use a proxy service IE. tor or buy a proxy for a few $ a month. Make them have to subpoena multiple ISPs before they can even get your IP address. It's even better if you can get a proxy in another country.

Use private browsing software. Firefox has add-ons for this. That way history is never even recorded onto your computer.
 
We originally posted the Sticky on this subject to make our members aware of a risk that they may not have known about and that they can mitigate. Denial is not a useful response, and questions about investigative techniques are not really within our scope here (nor does the technology stand still).

I would like to broaden the discussion to better illustrate where and how the subject matter of the Sticky fits into the whole ST&T spectrum.

Let's start by assuming that everyone knows and abides by the relevant use of force laws in the jurisdiction and that everyone is of a mindset to resort to the use of deadly force only as a last resort when it is absolutely necessary.

Given those assumptions (and the assumption that a person has not left his firearm at home), it seems to me that a person faces three risks if he becomes involved in a confrontation that requires the use of deadly force outside of his home.

The first is the risk that he or she may not prevail. Just as almost every male regards himself as an excellent driver, most armed citizens seem to think that they have the skills to handle any "punk" that they may encounter on the street. Unfortunately, that may not be true.

There are ways of mitigating that risk. They include skill and training, including mastering the art of situational awareness; and avoidance, including staying away from certain places, choosing parking places wisely, withdrawing to safety if there are indications of trouble, and so on. The latter can reduce the likelihood of having to use deadly force, and the former can increase our success rate should force become necessary.

The second risk is that of injuring an innocent bystander. Skill and training, situational awareness, and avoidance are applicable for mitigating that risk also.

The third risk involves the possibility that, even if one has used deadly force only when it was absolutely necessary and in a completely lawful manner, things may not go well for the actor after the incident. Problems can manifest themselves either in the area of a criminal investigations or in that of possible civil suits. This goes back to the realization that the old saw "a good shoot is a good shoot" is just not very helpful. This has been discussed here.

The fact is, even if the actor has done only that which was necessary and unavoidable, it is quite likely that only he or she will know that. Others will have to piece together a picture of what had been a live action event using what evidence can be gathered after the fact, and that evidence is likely to be incomplete, fragmentary, sometimes unclear, and possibly contradictory.

It is at that point that something that the actor had said before the incident or that he or she has said afterwards, if it can can be interpreted unfavorably, has the potential to be damaging.

That risk can be avoided completely by being careful about what one creates. No one should attempt to rely on any other mitigation technique.
 
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The person who open carried the AK-variant pistol didn't really seem do anything to help himself live a trouble-free life but that doesn't mean I condemn him for exercising his right to make a poor choice in defensive arms or carry it. The sling is the part that would bother me in a crowded area as it seems anyone swept by the muzzle would have a valid complaint against him. The orange tip is an interesting twist, but I'm not sure it has any meaning to the case.

Presumably the civil suit was guided by his attorney and may have some merit IMHO. For how long should one expect to be detained for not breaking a law? It seems to me like the ranger's excessive use of force when pointing a shotgun at his cooperative detainee is more of a breach of his rights. I guess that legally must not be the case or it is the angle a competent attorney would have pursued?
 
swingpress said:
The person who open carried the AK-variant pistol didn't really seem do anything to help himself live a trouble-free life but that doesn't mean I condemn him for exercising his right to make a poor choice in defensive arms or carry it....
There's a lot more to Leonard Embody's story, and that really isn't an accurate assessment. If you are interested in his exploits, I suggest the you Google "Kwikrnu" and "Leonard Embody."

The real issue of this thread is that someone's past posts on Internet gun boards were identified and used against him in court.
 
Fiddletown, the part of the Bill of Rights that speaks about privacy is the 4th Amendment.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Thus, I have a right to be secure in my (modern day, electronic) papers against any governmental search unless for by a probable cause warrant and in a specified area for specified things. Thus, wantonly searching the internet for any forum postings that might have come from my IP address is a violation of my privacy, and unconstitutional.
 
Kliegl said:
Fiddletown, the part of the Bill of Rights that speaks about privacy is the 4th Amendment...
Wrong. The Fourth Amendment does not describe a general right of privacy. It describes a right to be secure from unreasonable searches and seizures by government. What constitutes "unreasonable" has been the subject of considerable litigation over the years.

Among other things, things in plain view or things in public places or things in places in which one can have no reasonable expectation of privacy are fair game. The Internet is such a place -- especially anything posted on a public forum accessible to anyone in the world.

Kliegl said:
...wantonly searching the internet for any forum postings that might have come from my IP address is a violation of my privacy, and unconstitutional.
Cite some legal authority for that contention. Without authority, your opinion is of no consequence.
 
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fiddletown has expressed my understanding also.

There is no expectation of privacy on the internet on a public forum...it would be like posting a handbill on a bulletin board and expecting only certain people to read it.

While I can see the argument of the privacy of your private papers...kept in private folders on your private computer...once you have posted, they become public, as if broadcast to the world
 
fiddletown has expressed my understanding also.

There is no expectation of privacy on the internet on a public forum...it would be like posting a handbill on a bulletin board and expecting only certain people to read it.

fiddledown said it very well.
 
I'm sure most of you, including me, are too young to remember party lines,....

Yes, folks, on the internet we are on the equivalent of a old time telephone party line, or posting notices on a bulletin board at the laundromat, or writing letters to the editor of the local newspaper: we are speaking in public as far as 1A issues and right-to-privacy are concerned. You can't set up a soapbox in the public square and then claim right-to-privacy if your speech is heard.
 
The point of this thread was to talk about the risks of unwise online postings. It wasn't about how to cover your behind. The best way to not have your online doings called into legal question is to not do anything sketchy in real life and to not make yourself look dangerous online.
 
Anything you post on the internet can be taken out of context and used against you or your cause in the court of public opinion. One should post on the internet as a guest on "Meet The Press", not as a guest on "Jerry Springer".
 
Posted by mortablunt: The point of this thread was to talk about the risks of unwise online postings. It wasn't about how to cover your behind.
Exactly.

The best way to not have your online doings called into legal question is to not do anything sketchy in real life and to not make yourself look dangerous online.
There's a little more to it than that.

There is always the possibility that, despite our best efforts, any of us may end up in a position of having no alternative but to defend ourselves with the use of deadly force in a situation in which the evidence that we can produce in our defense of justification turns out to be sparse and there is some evidence or testimony that would lead others to believe that our action had not been lawfully justified.

The likely result would be a rather thorough investigation. At that point, the risk that apparently unfavorable or otherwise possibly damaging evidence that we had created may be brought forth from whatever medium becomes a concern.

It would seem to me that there are three areas of concern; note that there is the possibility of overlap, and that any of the examples may fall into more than one area:

  1. Comments or facts that contradict the actor's statements to inestigators or later testimony, damaging his or her credibility.
  2. The state of mind aspect discussed in the Sticky: the actor had expressed the opinion that his firearm was his to eliminate thieves or to enforce the law or to bring miscreants to justice; or the actor had repeatedly expressed strong concern about, or an intense dislike of, persons of a particular ethnicity.
  3. Indications of possible motive: evidence that, at some previous point in time, the actor had had some involvement with one of the other parties involved in the incident, perhaps in an employment situation, a dispute over a debt or payment, an argument about relationships, etc.

The third category is not something that one can prevent, and the risk is not at all limited to evidence that had been created by the actor himself. I include it for completeness.

That is not intended to contradict the statement, but to amplify it. The first thing to do is to make every effort to avoid being in a position to have to use the firearm, and the second is to not create things that can put us in a bad light.

The first is not just a matter of legal concerns. It is the best way to remain safe. And safety, after all, is why the responsible law abiding civilian who is not a sworn officer will carry a firearm in the first place.
 
^ It is good to always do some potential PR in your posts. Say things like "I never want to have to use this." Thanks for the advice.
 
It's hard to know what's going to come back to bite ya on the @$$. I'm seriously thinking it's time to disconnect and get a real life again.
 
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