"Straw purchase" questions...

[possenti]

At a recent gun show, I saw a poster warning buyers about making "straw purchases." It was defined as "buying a gun in your name that is intended for someone else" - or something like that. The legal status of the third party was never mentioned - (felon, mental case, etc.)

What exactly is a straw purchase? How does it apply in these three scenarios?

1. I have a friend who is not prohibited by law from owning a firearm. I tell him I'm going to a gun show. He has other plans that day, but gives me $200 to pick up an SKS for him. I fill out the required paperwork for the FFL dealer at the show, and deliver the gun to my buddy the next day. Did I break a law?

2. I buy a firearm as a gift for the same buddy.

3. I buy a rifle as a gift for my buddy's son, who is under the age of 18 - OR - A pistol for his son that's under 21. This, of course, is with complete consent of the parent.

If this law has any common sense (which I doubt) to it, it only applies if you buy a gun knowing that the intended owner has a felony record, mental history, is an illegal alien, etc.

Could someone clear this up?

 

[Reno]

Standard disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.

I believe case 1 is illegal, 2 is not, and I think 3 is legal, as long as you are buying it as a gift and he hasn't given you any money for the purchase. I could be mistaken, of course.

 

[Sisco]

I believe Reno is correct, disclaimer included.
I once dropped by a Texas gunshop just to look around, knew I couldn't buy anything because I was out of state.
Saw a handgun I really liked and mentioned out loud that my brother-in-law could buy it and give it to me for Christmas or something. (BIL wasn't present).
At that point the shop owner looked me right in the eye and said "I'm not talking to you anymore".
I was about to apologize for pissing him off when he turned to his buddy and said "You know, if someone comes in here and legally buys a gun, it's really none of my business what he does with it then. He can sell it, give it away or throw it away, none of my damn business".
I took the hint.

 

[thatguy]

A straw purchase is any time someone buys a gun on behalf of someone who is disqualified from legally buying or owning a gun. So buying for a friend who is barred from owning a gun is illegal and so is giving a gun to a person barred from gun ownership. Buying to give as a present to someone who can legally own a gun is OK.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Buying a gun for another person, whether they are qualified or not qualified to purchase a firearm themselves is considered a straw purchase. As stated, legitimate "gifts" are legal.

 

[GunGeek]

3. I buy a rifle as a gift for my buddy's son, who is under the age of 18 - OR - A pistol for his son that's under 21. This, of course, is with complete consent of the parent.

This one can vary state to state, but federally is legal. Course you could always buy your buddy the gun who lets his son shoot it.

Otherwise as stated before 1 is illegal, 2 is legal.

A straw purchase is any time someone buys a gun on behalf of someone who is disqualified from legally buying or owning a gun.

Buying the weapon on behalf of someone else is a "straw purchase" and is illegal regardles if that other person can or cannot legally buy his own guns.

Though I have never actually read it I assume wether money exchanged hands is going to be a big deciding factor in determining if it was a straw purchase vs. a gift.

IANAL

 

[Reno]

I once dropped by a Texas gunshop just to look around, knew I couldn't buy anything because I was out of state.

It's illegal to buy out of state, even if you're buying through an FFL and still undergoing the standard background check? I was under the impression that you can buy elsewhere, as long as you undergo the background check when you buy it.

 

[Zundfolge]

Here's a childish and condescending cartoon put out by the BATFE that explains what a "Straw Purchase" is.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/theater/toon4.html


So it appears that Reno is correct.

I was under the impression that you can buy elsewhere, as long as you undergo the background check when you buy it.

If you find a handgun in a shop out of state you can buy it, but only if you have a signed copy of your local gun shop's FFL with you (or they already have it on file) and they will ship the gun to them.

As for long guns I'm under the impression you can purchase long guns when you are out of state.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

As for long guns I'm under the impression you can purchase long guns when you are out of state.

Yep.

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

 

[Sisco]

Let's say I knew I wouldn't be buying anything because I wasn't interested in long guns at that time.

 

[Reno]

If you find a handgun in a shop out of state you can buy it, but only if you have a signed copy of your local gun shop's FFL with you (or they already have it on file) and they will ship the gun to them.

Now how does the ATF pretend to justify that? Do handgun purchasers who undergo a NICS check not in their state of residence become criminally insane?

 

[cracked butt]

Not a lawyer myself but,

I'm pretty sure you can buy a rifle, fill out the forms and take it home. The next day you wake up in the morning and realize that you really didn't like that SKS you bought and want to get rid of it. You could call up a friend who as far as you know doesn't have any restrictions barring him from owning firearms, and see if he would like to buy it. If he wants to buy it, and the price is fair, you have just done a legal transaction.

If you owned the sks for 20 years and sold it to the same friend, it would also be legal and not a straw purchase.

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I've read someplace that if you make more than 2 or 3 purchases within a week's timeframe you eitehr get reported to the BATF or get flagged by the BATF. No big deal or problem, unless you continually get flagged, and guns with serial numbers that you purchased start showing upat crime scenes. At this point you might be investigated. I would not buy a gun for someone if they asked me beforehand to buy for them if they were a stranger or a felon- this is obviously breaking the law.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

more than 2 or 3 purchases within a week's timeframe you eitehr get reported to the BATF or get flagged by the BATF

If you buy two or more handguns during 5 consecutive business days from the same dealer, he reports the "multiple sales" to ATF.

 

[Zundfolge]

Now how does the ATF pretend to justify that?

They justify it by saying they are regulating the interstate trafficking of handguns.


Frankly I think pretty much every gun law on the books is a violation of the 2nd Amendment (including the federal excise tax), but that won't get you out of jail if you decide to violate one of their illegal edicts.

 

[carp killer]

This is sorta along the same line. What if you use a state ID rather than a Drivers License.

 

[Jim K]

BATF does not have to "justify" anything, since they didn't make the rules. The LAW says you can't buy a handgun out of state. Read the law and take the gripes to your members of Congress.

All you need to do is to pay for the gun, or put down some money, then have your local dealer send a copy of his FFL to the out-of-state seller (dealer or individual) along with the rest of the money if any. I have done it dozens of times. Sure the dealer charges for the service. But if you get caught playing "straw man" by having an in-state resident buy for you, you and he can wind up in the slammer or get a fine that will make the dealer's fee look pretty small, plus never be able to own a gun for the rest of your lives.

Still want to play games with the law?

Jim

 

[2nd Amendment]

Well, to be perfectly blunt...yeah. But I wouldn't exactly call it a game.

If "#1" up at the top is actually illegal then I can't honestly think of anyone I know who isn't a federal felon. That fact makes me happy, considering everyone I know is still walking the street.

 

[Reno]

BATF does not have to "justify" anything, since they didn't make the rules. The LAW says you can't buy a handgun out of state. Read the law and take the gripes to your members of Congress.

All you need to do is to pay for the gun, or put down some money, then have your local dealer send a copy of his FFL to the out-of-state seller (dealer or individual) along with the rest of the money if any. I have done it dozens of times. Sure the dealer charges for the service. But if you get caught playing "straw man" by having an in-state resident buy for you, you and he can wind up in the slammer or get a fine that will make the dealer's fee look pretty small, plus never be able to own a gun for the rest of your lives.

Still want to play games with the law?

Jim

"I was just following orders" isn't an excuse. It didn't work for nazis who committed war crimes, it shouldn't work for the ATF. Having to go through a procedure like that is absolutely absurd. A NICS check is going to have the same result regardless what state the FFL calls from.

And what gave you the idea that I had any intention of "playing games" with the law? I asked for a reason - I don't want my door kicked in by thugs acting under the guise of keeping me "safe."

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I asked for a reason

The reason is that Lee Harvey Oswald ordered his Carcano through the mail. When they wrote the '68 GCA, they decided to require you to buy firearms in your state of residence only (with an exception for long guns from border states). When the '86 FOPA came around, they allowed you to buy a long gun in person from a dealer outside your home state.

 

[Reno]

You misunderstood. When I said "I asked for a reason," I meant "I had a reason for asking." Thanks for the info though, I wasn't aware of the reason behind it.

 

[whm1974]

Buying a gun for another person, whether they are qualified or not qualified to purchase a firearm themselves is considered a straw purchase. As stated, legitimate "gifts" are legal.

Then how does the ATF prove the "straw purchase" wasn't a gift? Also The purchaser could keep the gun for a month and claim he didn't like it so he sold it.

If you buy two or more handguns during 5 consecutive business days from the same dealer, he reports the "multiple sales" to ATF.

Good thing last week I only purchased one handgun even though I'm also in the market for a couple more. Does the ATF contact the buyer asking why he brough more then one handgun in five days?

-Bill

 

[Rotnguns]

okay, related question...

..can I, as a private (non FFL) citizen, sell a rifle to a visiting family member, if he lives in another state, and it is legal for him to posess the rifle in both states?

 

[whm1974]

..can I, as a private (non FFL) citizen, sell a rifle to a visiting family member, if he lives in another state, and it is legal for him to posess the rifle in both states?

I may be wrong but I don't think you can. If you can he may have live in the state next to yours.

-Bill Meadows

 

[Kooter]

As for long guns I'm under the impression you can purchase long guns when you are out of state.

as with most(all) firearms laws they differ from state to state. federal law allows out of state long gun purchases in any state, HOWEVER many states have laws stating where a resident of their state may buy a long gun. you have to abide by your own state rules as well as the rules of the state you are buying it in.

example: any resident of illinois has to have a FOID card no matter what state they purchase a long gun in.

example: a kentucky resident can only buy long guns from states that are contiguous to kentucky. and kentucky FFLs can only sell long guns to people who are residents of states that are contiguous to kentucky.

so i, as a washington resident, can't go to kentucky and (legally)buy any firearm. and a kentucky resident can't come to washington and (legally) buy a firearm.

 

[HABU]

I am in agreement with thatguy. Lots of guys saying scenario #1 is illegal. My position is certainly subject to change, but AFIK, it is legal to buy a rifle for someone else that is legally able to own one. I thougt/think that a straw purchase is a purchase for someone else unable to legally buy/own a firearm.

I may be all sideways on this issue and certainly don't knock anyone for being paranoid of the ATF (or whatever they are calling themselves this year). I'm gonna try and find the legal definition of a straw purchase, as I am now curious of where the line is drawn.