Legal question about BP firearms.

[Texas Moon]

A friend is building a muzzleloader from scratch.
We got to discussing if it needed a serial number. I've no idea.
Does a BP firearm(factory, revolver, home built, etc) require a serial number?

 

[scythefwd]

No SN needed unless it is for sale. This actually applies to all firearms, not just black powder arms. State laws might interfere, but considering where you are from I highly doubt it.

 

[mykeal]

That's correct.

 

[higene]

Legal II

Do Sitting Fox and Track of the Wolf have SNs on weapons or kits that they sell?

Some Sears and Montgomery Ward cartridge guns do not have serial numbers - does that make it illegal to sell them?

Higene

 

[scythefwd]

higene - those cartridge guns, when were they made?

Sitting Fox and Track of the wolf are not selling assembled guns, and as such they may not be required to have a SN. On the other hand, they may have serial numbers on them anyways. I'm wrong, they are selling guns. Muzzle loading guns do not require a serial number that I am aware of. They also don't require a FFL to transfer them over state lines. Serial numbers are only required by federal law on guns made after 1964 (?). Anything made before that, and a SN isn't required. When manufacturing a new firearm, a SN or unique identifiable marking isn't required if you are not going to transfer it. If the gun is later transferred, you must have a SN on it. At least that is how it goes with modern guns. I'm not 100% sure on muzzle loader guns, but kits don't have to have SN on them, pretty sure built muzzle loaders don't require it either.

 

[AirForceShooter]

You realize 1 is a number
It's perfectly valid

AFS

 

[Chawbaccer]

Muzzleloaders do not come under regulation by the BATF, There may be state and local regulations where you live. No SN is necessary for purchase or sale of finished muzzloader or kit or parts.
Prior to the GCA 1968 serial numbers were not required on arms using fixed ammunition and many manufacturers did not number the cheaper guns. No number is required on these guns for transfer.
Now, if you are making one gun maybe you will want to make another and another so forth. Stamp a number on them out of pride and keep records in case you are making coveted arms and somebody can follow the history of what you are making.

 

[BCRider]

Chawbaccer, ALL muzzle loaders or only the original antiques and faithful reproductions? I ask because there are a lot of modern fully rifled inline cap ignited, Pyrodex spewing, cheater sabot eating and hideously be-scoped Johnny come latelys that are also modern hunting muzzle loaders.


And yes, I did type that with tongue firmly in cheek.... or maybe with just a little sarcasm.....

 

[4v50 Gary]

As far as federal regulations are concerned, non-metallic cartridge muzzle loading guns are not regulated.

 

[BCRider]

Oh I wish we were so enlightened up north....

Thanks Gary.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

As far as federal regulations are concerned, non-metallic cartridge muzzle loading guns are not regulated.

Um I thought the exempted guns were those made before 1898, "antique guns", and reproductions of antique guns. As muzzleloading caplocks, flintlocks, wheellocks, and matchlocks made today are exact copies of antique designs that are exempt, they too are exempt.

The problem with the above quote, is that many modern inlines are NOT direct copies of an old, antique system..., and as such may not be unregulated. Perhaps I am wrong.

LD

 

[Foto Joe]

Um I thought the exempted guns were those made before 1898, "antique guns", and reproductions of antique guns. As muzzleloading caplocks, flintlocks, wheellocks, and matchlocks made today are exact copies of antique designs that are exempt, they too are exempt.

The problem with the above quote, is that many modern inlines are NOT direct copies of an old, antique system..., and as such may not be unregulated. Perhaps I am wrong.

As far as "Exact" goes, modern repros', not so much, but close enough for most of us.
The key is "Black Powder Only".

As far as federal regulations are concerned, non-metallic cartridge muzzle loading guns are not regulated.

As a quick browse through Cabelas will show, there are MANY "Muzzle Loading" firearms (rifles) that qualify for hunting in all states and some of those states also provide for a "Black Powder" season.

As I've stated before on this forum, our government has apparently forgotten exactly what type of firearms we used to defeat the British. As far as they are concerned, we are apparently harmless. As congress has demonstrated on numerous occasions, those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

For now, they pretty much leave us alone. Let's hope the gangbangers and terrorists never take up BP for a hobby because if that happens we'll all be learning to make our own powder and caps.

 

[hirundo82]

Um I thought the exempted guns were those made before 1898, "antique guns", and reproductions of antique guns. As muzzleloading caplocks, flintlocks, wheellocks, and matchlocks made today are exact copies of antique designs that are exempt, they too are exempt.

The problem with the above quote, is that many modern inlines are NOT direct copies of an old, antique system..., and as such may not be unregulated. Perhaps I am wrong.

LD

Per federal law, if it cannot use or be converted to use fixed ammunition it is not a firearm.

18 USC §921
(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

State law may of course be more restrictive. I know Texas for one does not have the third exception (only exceptions for pre-1898 guns, and replicas of pre-1898 guns that do not use centerfire or rimfire ammunition), so it is arguable that modern muzzleloaders would be firearms under state law. I've never heard of this being enforced though.

 

[Cosmoline]

Muzzleloader BP guns--antique or modern--are not firearms under federal law. They are not regulated by the BATFE and do not need a serial number.

Some states do regulate them, but not many.

 

[wittzo]

A lot of companies that make BP firearms stamp them with a serial number, but that's so they can keep track of quality control in batches and stuff. And other countries and states want serial numbers on any gun for their paperwork and regulations.

BP is unregulated in general. I assume that would allow you to build as many BP guns as you want over any time period. Whether you want to put some sort of numerical signifier on it is up to you. It could be a number or a sign of the Zodiac, Peanuts character, binary, whatever.

I put a lot of research into this a couple of years ago. You're allowed to make any kind of cartridge weapon you're legally allowed to purchase for your personal use. You're required to have it engraved with your name and your city and state. You can make one gun a year for your personal use. You're not allowed to sell them for profit, if you want to, you have to get an FFL to manufacture and sell them. If you transfer the weapon to another owner, the firearm has to be engraved with a serial number and sales tax has to be paid to the state, based on a retail value. One gun a year doesn't count as "for profit", but several a year gets you in trouble.

Lots of people buy 80% kits for 1911's, Sten guns, and AR-15's. Lots of them buy them in bulk so they're less expensive. They work on them one at a time so they won't be breaking the law. They like the idea of having a cool weapon that's off the books and legal.

There are some lawmakers trying to pass a law that will allow homemade firearms to be exempt of the NFA as long as they never leave the state of manufacture, including machine guns and suppressors. That's a good idea, and I support it, but it will never pass. Someone's cache will be "stolen" and smuggled into a non-gun friendly state with political power (like NY condemning gun sales in every other nonregulated state) and screw it up for the rest of us.

 

[the-ghost]

Muzzleloader BP guns--antique or modern--are not firearms under federal law. They are not regulated by the BATFE and do not need a serial number.

Some states do regulate them, but not many.

right, in colorado you don't even have to show ID to buy a front stuffer, or c&b pistol.

 

[Wolfebyte]

when I bought 2 of my BP weapons at the Pawn shop, I had to fill out a yellow form for the Inline (Traditions Tracker 209) since it was "modern" but I didn't have to fill one out for the Remmy 1858..

 

[wittzo]

Some dealers want to CYA, so they have you fill out a form, the same as pre-1898 guns. They're not required to put them in their books, but once they do, they have to fill out a form. I seriously doubt if an inline BP gun is recovered as evidence, it would be researched like a regular firearm, the dealer is wasting his and the NICS' time.