Legalities of moving your handgun from....

[Texasgrillchef]

In Texas... can’t speak for other states. If you have your LTC, (This question does not pertain to those who don’t have an LTC) You can carry concealed on your body in any manner, outside of a vehicle or while inside a vehicle. To openly carry, the handgun must be in a belt holster or shoulder holster. This applies inside or outside a vehicle.

if your on your own personal property that you own, rent or lease, or even on mutual owned property such as a parking lot at a apartment or condo complex, and your going back n forth between your dwelling and vehicle this does not apply.

so my question... I go to my local mall, they don’t have a 30.06 or 30.07 sign. My gun is in glove compartment, center console compartment, or even trunk of my vehicle. For the 5-10 seconds it takes to remove or replace the handgun from that concealed compartment to my body, or vice versa the gun is in plains view and not a n a shoulder holster or belt holster. That Technically is illegal isn’t it? Or has something like this ever made it to court to become case law?

I don’t see this as being a big issue in Texas, unless their are other mitigating circumstances. However I could see this being an issue in other states.

 

[bdickens]

Really? Are you serious?

 

[Kleanbore]

That Technically is illegal isn’t it?

"Technically illegal" is a dangerous phrase uttered by people with little knowledge of the law.

 

[1942bull]

I do not think that would be open carrying. You are transitioning from legal storage in a vehicle to a legal carrying method. It is a practical momentary necessity not a sustained practice. The other point is whether the gun signage on the property applies to parking lots in which you have to park. I do. Or know TX law, but it would seem unreasonable to me if the restriction for in private premises also applied to on to a semi public parking area. If it did there could likely be a restriction by some level of signage that would not permit you to park in the lot with a gun in the car. Operating under the “reasonable man” theory of law makes me think you are safe doing what you are concerned about. Still you can always call. The TX Attorney General office for guidance.

 

[bihj]

I'm under the illusion that the Texas "castle doctrine" extends to your vehicle, no matter where the vehicle is located.

 

[Kleanbore]

'm under the illusion that the Texas "castle doctrine" extends to your vehicle, no matter where the vehicle is located.

Occupied vehicle.

That has nothing to do with the subject.

 

[CapnMac]

Since it's not explicitly spelled out in Code, it's probably something to be left to a jury to decide--after action by both LEO and the local prosecutor.

I believe that the previous AG guidance was that "Brandishing" could not be specifically defined in Code, therefore it would have to be determined as a matter of fact by a jury.
[insert code here]
All of which infers (infers only) that if a Reasonable Person were not alarmed, frightened, or otherwise discomfited by the brief glimpse of a firearm, then no offense occurs. Maybe. Perhaps. YMMV.

Humans span a huge range of dimensions, mere law cannot encompass them all.

You cannot go to the Law and say "what if I had my fingers crossed, left-handed, holding a pink rabbit's foot?"

 

[dogtown tom]

In Texas.....so my question... I go to my local mall, they don’t have a 30.06 or 30.07 sign. My gun is in glove compartment, center console compartment, or even trunk of my vehicle. For the 5-10 seconds it takes to remove or replace the handgun from that concealed compartment to my body, or vice versa the gun is in plains view and not a n a shoulder holster or belt holster. That Technically is illegal isn’t it?

Seriously?
Please retake your LTC class or pay for an hour of an attorneys time.
Stop for one second and tell me how your scenario is any different than you drawing your gun to use it? It's not in a holster but in plain view.....IN YOUR HAND. Are you violating Texas law at that point?

Or has something like this ever made it to court to become case law?

None that I'm aware of. First, the odds of someone being observed doing such is pretty small.
Not to mention being seen by LE.
Not to mention LE having the common sense to see what your intentions are.
Not to mention his supervisors common sense.
Not to mention the common sense of the DA who would review the incident and file charges.

But YOUR common sense negates all the above......don't display YOUR GUN IN PUBLIC when transitioning to/from your holster.

I don’t see this as being a big issue in Texas, unless their are other mitigating circumstances. However I could see this being an issue in other states.

Well of course.

 

[dogtown tom]

I'm under the illusion that the Texas "castle doctrine" extends to your vehicle, no matter where the vehicle is located.

Texas "Castle Doctrine" has nothing to do with what the OP describes.
Please begin reading here: https://guides.sll.texas.gov/gun-laws/stand-your-ground

 

[bdickens]

You cannot go to the Law and say "what if I had my fingers crossed, left-handed, holding a pink rabbit's foot?

Precisely.

It serves no real purpose to waste so much time and energy wrestling the what if monkey.

 

[Ed Ames]

Can I ask you a question, Chef?


You keep asking these Texas law questions about various things do do with carry, off and on body, open and concealed, in or out of a car. What has you concerned? Or, if you aren’t concerned, what are you wanting to do that you think might be an issue?

 

[Texasgrillchef]

"Technically illegal" is a dangerous phrase uttered by people with little knowledge of the law.

Technically illegal, is what I call things that are in fact illegal, but no one gets arrested or ticketed for breaking that law.

Example, here in one suburb of Dallas, crossing the street anywhere there isn’t a crosswalk is in fact against the law. Yet, according to one news reporter, no one has been given a ticket in the city for over two years for breaking the law, and the reporter clearly showed many people doing so. Interestingly enough after the report aired, they did a follow up and the city all of a sudden had over 200 tickets issued in 90 days. Go figure.

 

[Kleanbore]

Technically illegal, is what I call things that are in fact illegal, but no one gets arrested or ticketed for breaking that law.

Alrighty then.

Interestingly enough after the report aired, they did a follow up and the city all of a sudden had over 200 tickets issued in 90 days. Go figure.

So, technical illegality, as defined by you, was meaningless?

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Can I ask you a question, Chef?


You keep asking these Texas law questions about various things do do with carry, off and on body, open and concealed, in or out of a car. What has you concerned? Or, if you aren’t concerned, what are you wanting to do that you think might be an issue?

I know what I read, but I also know that what I read and understand is probably not the way it actually is, so by posting the question and hearing what others do or at least have to say gives me some insight and better understanding.

I have no desire to break the law. Even if I don’t agree with the law, I don’t wish to break the law. If the law is for another state, I want to understand so I dont break the law when I travel there, or I can choose not to travel there. Such as I won’t go to California or New York.

In other cases, a better understanding gives me the chance to see if something should be changed or updated and to contact my government rep, local state or federal depending on the issue at hand. One example of that is Te as limiting open carry to two types of holsters. I personally believe other forms of holsters should be allowed as well.

However, for the most part I am curious to how other people do certain things and desire a better understanding of why others do the things they do as well.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Alrighty then.

So, technical illegality, as defined by you, was meaningless?

Well in regards to the example... I would have said at one time that jaywalking in that city was technically illegal. Meaning it was on the books as illegal but no one was arrested or ticketed for it. However after the news report, and people started getting tickets for it, then I wouldn’t say that anymore.

very similar to where many cities have old laws still on the “books” and are obsolete and meaningless but have never officially been repealed.

There are many many laws around the country that are never enforced for whatever reason. Sure maybe a few people just don’t break the, but there are some that are just never enforced either. Maybe there is a better term for “Technically illegal” for those laws that are never enforced, but I don’t know what term that would be.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

I do not think that would be open carrying. You are transitioning from legal storage in a vehicle to a legal carrying method. It is a practical momentary necessity not a sustained practice. The other point is whether the gun signage on the property applies to parking lots in which you have to park. I do. Or know TX law, but it would seem unreasonable to me if the restriction for in private premises also applied to on to a semi public parking area. If it did there could likely be a restriction by some level of signage that would not permit you to park in the lot with a gun in the car. Operating under the “reasonable man” theory of law makes me think you are safe doing what you are concerned about. Still you can always call. The TX Attorney General office for guidance.

I could be wrong, but as I understand it, Texas has two laws that allow concealed locked storage of our guns in any otherwise public parking lot. Does not matter if it’s for your employer, school, or even for locations that have officially posted 30.06/30.07 signs. I think the only exception to this, is federal property, prisons, and I think a few others maybe.

I haven’t heard of anyone being arrested for the transition in getting in or out of vehicle and storing said gun in the vehicle.

however , as I explained in another post, there are laws that are not enforced, or that are very rarely enforced. I do not wish to break the law, and just cause a law isn’t enforced, doesn’t mean I want to disregard the law either.

 

[Kleanbore]

t there are some that are just never enforced either. Maybe there is a better term for “Technically illegal” for those laws that are never enforced, but I don’t know what term that would be.

Never say never.

I have known people who said, "I have never heard of anyone being charged with that", and living to regret it very, very much.

Back to your question: the thing to to not have your gun "in plain view" for 5-10 seconds. Why would you do that?

I don't.

It wouldn't be unlawful here, but I do not like drawing attention to my self.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Seriously?
Please retake your LTC class or pay for an hour of an attorneys time.
Stop for one second and tell me how your scenario is any different than you drawing your gun to use it? It's not in a holster but in plain view.....IN YOUR HAND. Are you violating Texas law at that point?

No, I wouldn’t, because as I understand it, as long as one is truly legally drawing their weapon in Self defense then obviously it wouldn’t be. However, if it wasn’t a true self defense situation, then one could be charged with brandishing a firearm.

Like I said at the end of my post, I don’t see this as being an issue, for the exact reasons you said.

however transitioning with some holsters, weapons, may not always be possible to keep it out of plain view of others nearby.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Never say never.

I have known people who said, "I have never heard of anyone being charged with that", and living to regret it very, very much.

Back to your question: the thing to to not have your gun "in plain view" for 5-10 seconds. Why would you do that?

I don't.

It wouldn't be unlawful here, but I do not like drawing attention to my self.

Exactly why I also said, even if a law is never enforced, even if I don’t agree with the law, doesn’t mean I would want to break that law, for the exact reasons you just said. The one example I gave of jaywalking proves that point. No one given a ticket for it for two years, then 200+ tickets in 90 days!

I prefer to play it safe when it comes to Leo’s

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Never say never.

I have known people who said, "I have never heard of anyone being charged with that", and living to regret it very, very much.

Back to your question: the thing to to not have your gun "in plain view" for 5-10 seconds. Why would you do that?

I don't.

It wouldn't be unlawful here, but I do not like drawing attention to my self.

because sometimes it’s not always possible.

Transitioning my 454 Casull from my shoulder chest holder, to my vehicle gun safe isn’t always easy to do “concealed” as an example. It isn’t comfortable to wear while driving.

 

[dogtown tom]

Technically illegal, is what I call things that are in fact illegal, but no one gets arrested or ticketed for breaking that law.

Example, here in one suburb of Dallas, crossing the street anywhere there isn’t a crosswalk is in fact against the law. Yet, according to one news reporter, no one has been given a ticket in the city for over two years for breaking the law, and the reporter clearly showed many people doing so. Interestingly enough after the report aired, they did a follow up and the city all of a sudden had over 200 tickets issued in 90 days. Go figure.

What suburb? Must have been a reeeeeaaaaallllllyyyy slow news day.
"Jaywalking" is in fact a VERY COMMON traffic ordinance in cities all over the country.

Whether its rarely enforced is immaterial. Police officers have quite a bit of discretion when it comes to enforcement of some statutes
-1mph over the speed limit.....applied differently in a school zone vs interstate hwy in a rural area.
-failure to signal a turn or lane change
-failing to dim headlights
-littering
-barking dog
-etc

 

[Texasgrillchef]

What suburb? Must have been a reeeeeaaaaallllllyyyy slow news day.
"Jaywalking" is in fact a VERY COMMON traffic ordinance in cities all over the country.

Whether its rarely enforced is immaterial. Police officers have quite a bit of discretion when it comes to enforcement of some statutes
-1mph over the speed limit.....applied differently in a school zone vs interstate hwy in a rural area.
-failure to signal a turn or lane change
-failing to dim headlights
-littering
-barking dog
-etc

Of course they do! Thankfully! I don’t know anyone that hasn’t been pulled over at least once, and the officer let them go without writing a ticket when they could have easily done so.

But again... like I have said... even if it’s a law that extremely rarely if ever enforced, and even if I don’t agree with it, doesn’t mean I am willing or desiring to break it. Now that’s not saying I don’t break some laws occasionally, intentionally or otherwise, but when it comes to guns, I would prefer not to break any of those laws. Especially with today’s anti-gunners running around.

 

[Kleanbore]

Transitioning my 454 Casull from my shoulder chest holder, to my vehicle gun safe isn’t always easy to do “concealed” as an example. It isn’t comfortable to wear while driving.

I cannot picture what you are describing.

Are you carrying a large handgun in a concealed shoulder holster when you are not driving, drawing it when you are outside the car, and putting it into a gun safe before driving away because it is not comfortable to drive with it holstered?

 

[Ed Ames]

I know what I read, but I also know that what I read and understand is probably not the way it actually is, so by posting the question and hearing what others do or at least have to say gives me some insight and better understanding. ...

However, for the most part I am curious to how other people do certain things and desire a better understanding of why others do the things they do as well.

OK. In that case I think you may do better leaving out the legal citations and ask your question in a more general way. The world is full of Internet Lawyers who don’t like people trying to use a Socratic approach to learning.

No, I wouldn’t, because as I understand it, as long as one is truly legally drawing their weapon in Self defense then obviously it wouldn’t be. However, if it wasn’t a true self defense situation, then one could be charged with brandishing a firearm.

So, to give an example of what I just said... It isn’t that holding a gun is brandishing unless it’s self defense.

There is something called brandishing. Doing it is a crime. But it isn’t just holding a gun outside of a self defense situation. It’s using a gun to threaten or intimidate.

The problem is that any time you are holding a gun it may be interpreted as brandishing. If someone sees you and feels threatened or intimidated, they can accuse you of brandishing. Then it’s this whole big thing you’ve got to deal with. That doesn’t mean it is, but do you really want to have to argue about it? No. In the case of a self defense situation, proving you were defending yourself will hopefully also serve to prove you weren’t brandishing, but either way you’ve gotta do what you’ve gotta do.

Holding a gun in public, outside of a self defense situation, may run afoul if other laws, but if we assume you aren’t breaking those then it’s perfectly legal. Otherwise you couldn’t go to a shooting range, gun store, hunt, etc.. Maybe not safely legal because as I mentioned you can get accused, but it’s not against the law.

So, the trick is to transition your firearm in a way that doesn’t cause anyone to think you are brandishing. Easiest is to not be seen. But if you are seen and it’s obvious you are being safe, it’s not a big deal. One way people avoid accusations is to leave the gun holstered (which has other advantages) but that’s just one way.

 

[deadin]

There is something called brandishing. Doing it is a crime. But it isn’t just holding a gun outside of a self defense situation. It’s using a gun to threaten or intimidate.

Kind of like the folks that show up at a protest with their AR15 on a one [point sling and then stand there and stare at the protestors while fondling the rifle.......