Legality of obtaining “residence” LTC/CHL

[Texasgrillchef]

At one time in history, owning multiple homes was considered very rare and only in the top 2% or 3% of the nation if not world. In this day and age, the number of people owning multiple properties that could be considered homes is quite numerous. Even if for many of those people, the other home is a vacation home, cabin, lake home, mountain home, or even a properties they lease to others.

I own a residence in Utah, and two here in Texas. I have a Texas LTC. Utah recognizes Texas LTC so haven’t felt a huge need to obtain a Utah LTC. However recently I have been considering one, because Washington state will recognize a Utah LTC while they won’t recognize a Texas LTC. Washington will recognize either a resident or non resident Utah LTC.

So my question is the legality of applying for a Utah LTC as a resident? Seems according to all the information I can obtain. Is all that is needed is a Utah DL or ID, or have a deed or lease to a home in Utah, or a vehicle registered in Utah. I have everything but the Utah DL or ID.

So what is exactly needed to show residence? Legally speaking? In reference for the purposes of having a resident LTC?

 

[DocRock]

https://bci.utah.gov/concealed-firearm/how-do-i-apply-for-a-concealed-firearm-permit/

All the information you require is there, published by the Utah Dept of Public Safety, including "information that must accompany the application ". I would suggest examining the "Non-Resident Proof of Permit" bullet point.

 

[CapnMac]

Federal law only says that your residence is where you intend to live.
State laws all differ.

 

[boom boom]

At one time in history, owning multiple homes was considered very rare and only in the top 2% or 3% of the nation if not world. In this day and age, the number of people owning multiple properties that could be considered homes is quite numerous. Even if for many of those people, the other home is a vacation home, cabin, lake home, mountain home, or even a properties they lease to others.

I own a residence in Utah, and two here in Texas. I have a Texas LTC. Utah recognizes Texas LTC so haven’t felt a huge need to obtain a Utah LTC. However recently I have been considering one, because Washington state will recognize a Utah LTC while they won’t recognize a Texas LTC. Washington will recognize either a resident or non resident Utah LTC.

So my question is the legality of applying for a Utah LTC as a resident? Seems according to all the information I can obtain. Is all that is needed is a Utah DL or ID, or have a deed or lease to a home in Utah, or a vehicle registered in Utah. I have everything but the Utah DL or ID.

So what is exactly needed to show residence? Legally speaking? In reference for the purposes of having a resident LTC?

You may be aware or not based on your two residences that sometimes it will have tax implications. During graduate school, we used to work summer jobs in our home state for extra income, as a result, we had to file income taxes in two states which was a pain. I don't think Utah is particularly bad but it is possible that it might have some tax implications given that you don't pay income taxes in Texas-dunno about Utah if claiming as a resident.

Here is the Utah state information regarding tax implications on residency. https://incometax.utah.gov/instructions/residency

California and New York are particularly avaricious in collecting taxes based on claims of residency.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Federal law only says that your residence is where you intend to live.
State laws all differ.

That's federal law in connection with the Gun Control Act of 1968. See 27 CFR 478.11.

State laws defining residence can get a good deal more complicated. So, for example, under state law the standard for determining whether one pays a resident or a non-resident fee for a hunting license could be different from the standard for determining whether one pays resident or nonresident tuition to a state university. There's no substitute for doing the research.

But at least it appears the Utah makes it easy to determine if one applies for a concealed weapons permit as a resident or nonresident. As outlined in the Utah Department of Public Safety information:

Non-resident proof of permit. If you reside in a state that recognizes the validity of the Utah CFP or has reciprocity with Utah, you must obtain a CFP or CCW from your home state and submit a copy of it with your application for a Utah permit. For a list of reciprocal states click here. You are considered a resident of whichever state issued your ID. If your state does not recognize the Utah permit this does not apply.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Well when I went to the states site and read the application form. For a resident LTC, all one needs is to show is a Utah dL or ID. I have a Utah ID and a Texas DL. So it looks likes I can apply for a Utah LTC as a resident. Since I have a Utah ID showing my Utah address of the home I own there as well. It doesn’t seem to require any other information.

I could file for a non-resident as well.

I can’t seem to find any clear federal law on residency. It varies from state to state.

As mentioned in a earlier post, what is needed for residency for DL, or In-state tuition, or resident non resident ltc, or hunting licenses, and other state items does vary from state to state.

Texas doesn’t have an income tax. In Texas you have property tax and sales tax. If you own property you pay tax. It doesn’t matter where your home state residency is from.

resident hunting/fishing license, all you need is a Texas ID or DL. It requires one of the two. Although to get a Texas ID you have to have a Texas address and have to show proof of address. To do this you can show a deed for real estate, a mortgage, lease agreement, auto insurance card, a W2, or utility bill, or bank statement.

Many but not all states are like Texas. Apparently in Texas, if you have a Texas ID you can get a Resident LTC as well.

Where things get fishy is when you actually own a vehicle and where you have it registered. If you have a Texas LTC and ID, but are driving a vehicle registered in another state, you are quoted to register that vehicle within 90 days of it being in Texas. Same with a DL. So if you get pulled over and the officer wants to see your DL and LTC, showing a resident Texas LTC and a DL from another state could get you a ticket!

Seems a State ID and DL is the way most Leo’s consider residency.

 

[Archie]

Talk to a lawyer in Utah who is versed in the state's concealed weapon laws and what is needed to be qualified (in the legal sense). As mentioned above, all states are different in some degree.

 

[boom boom]

Well when I went to the states site and read the application form. For a resident LTC, all one needs is to show is a Utah dL or ID. I have a Utah ID and a Texas DL. So it looks likes I can apply for a Utah LTC as a resident. Since I have a Utah ID showing my Utah address of the home I own there as well. It doesn’t seem to require any other information.

I could file for a non-resident as well.

I can’t seem to find any clear federal law on residency. It varies from state to state.

As mentioned in a earlier post, what is needed for residency for DL, or In-state tuition, or resident non resident ltc, or hunting licenses, and other state items does vary from state to state.

Texas doesn’t have an income tax. In Texas you have property tax and sales tax. If you own property you pay tax. It doesn’t matter where your home state residency is from.

resident hunting/fishing license, all you need is a Texas ID or DL. It requires one of the two. Although to get a Texas ID you have to have a Texas address and have to show proof of address. To do this you can show a deed for real estate, a mortgage, lease agreement, auto insurance card, a W2, or utility bill, or bank statement.

Many but not all states are like Texas. Apparently in Texas, if you have a Texas ID you can get a Resident LTC as well.

Where things get fishy is when you actually own a vehicle and where you have it registered. If you have a Texas LTC and ID, but are driving a vehicle registered in another state, you are quoted to register that vehicle within 90 days of it being in Texas. Same with a DL. So if you get pulled over and the officer wants to see your DL and LTC, showing a resident Texas LTC and a DL from another state could get you a ticket!

Seems a State ID and DL is the way most Leo’s consider residency.

Some states are nasty enough to tax your income at the differential rate if you claim residency.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Some states are nasty enough to tax your income at the differential rate if you claim residency.

That’s a good point. I pay plenty in Utah Property Taxes but do not file a Utah Income tax. If I filed for and obtained a resident LtC, that could open me up to having to pay Utah Income taxes. Depending on how they define what income is taxed in Utah.

Oklahoma has an income tax. But only on income that is earned or made in Oklahoma. Therefore I don’t have to pay Oklahoma income tax, even though I own property in Oklahoma and they give me status as a resident. Every state is different. Oklahoma is a constitutional carry state now, and they still recognize a Texas LTC. So absolutely no need to get an OK LTC. Also no need to as it would not add any states for purposes of reciprocity either.

With all that being said. I will just obtain a NON-Resident Utah LTC as having a resident LTC would offer no benefit over resident LTC. Even when it comes to reciprocity. Washington recognizes both resident and non-resident Utah LTC. Every other state that recognizes Utah’s LTC also recognizes Texas LTC (other than Washington state)

Thus it’s just easier and safer to get a NON-Resident. Less to worry about with questions later down the road about residency anyways.

Hopefully maybe someday, our federal government, Congress and President will pass the reciprocity law, and all of this will become a moot point! We can onLy pray and hope.

 

[danez71]

So it looks likes I can apply for a Utah LTC as a resident.

I could file for a non-resident as well.

I'm no lawyer and very well could be wrong, but.....

IMO, it doesn't pass the straight face test to think they wrote the laws in a way that people can be both a resident and a non-resident at the same time.

And I can't imagine standing in front of a judge and claim that even though I live in another state, I'm a resident of UT because I have a UT ID card.


Having switch state residency in the past between AZ and CA, I've learned a few things so I did some quick checking for UT and it appears be the same in terms of the following.

Whether you apply for a UT I'D or a UT DL, you have to show proof of residency.

I'm order to get UT drivers license you'd have to surrender your TX DL.

If you want a UT ID and have a UT DL, you have to surrender your UT DL to get the UT ID.

You need to surrender one to get the other.

It also doesn't make sense that you've somehow correctly aquired a UT ID card which you need residency in UT to get and also have a TX DL which you have to show residency in TX to get.

The docs you need to get the UT ID

- Must display the applicant's name and principal Utah residence address which may include: - Bank statement - Court documents; - Current mortgage or rental contract; - Major credit card bill; - Property tax notice; - School transcript; - Utility bill; - Vehicle title.

Note the part that says "principal Utah residence address".


You live in TX. Your principle residence is not in UT.

If you had 2 houses in UT and actually lived in UT, youd have a princple UT residence address and a secondary address.

But since you live in TX, you dont have a "principal Utah residence address"

 

[boom boom]

I'm order to get UT drivers license you'd have to surrender your TX DL.

If you want a UT ID and have a UT DL, you have to surrender your UT DL to get the UT ID.

You need to surrender one to get the other.

Actually, the reason for the driver's license surrender is not what you think. Back in the old days before databases could talk to each other, a lot of truckers and other bad actors with horrendous driving records would often accumulate drivers licenses in multiple states so that they could evade background checks. A state governor went to prison based on what he did as Sec. of State allowing these bad actors to get Illinois driving licenses for big trucks for a bribe. Some states had laws on the books but others more or less took the money (commercial licenses bring in money).

Basically, many states are hungry for part year residents as a source of tax money so they grant certain leeway on becoming a resident. The federales are relatively lax on residency because of people who are wealthy and have multiple homes in multiple states.

Then, there is the full faith and credit clause and prohibitions under the equal protection clause about treating out of staters more harshly than instaters which gets complicated fast.

So, state law governs when a person is a resident for state purposes and when they are not resulting in inconsistency because states want outside money but also to restrict certain things to residents. Federal constitutional restrictions on states also matter. Then there is the enforcement issue where some states care about issues more than others. For example, I doubt New York is actively prosecuting snowbirds that go to Florida for voting in both states. Florida might, but that is more a function of Floridians taking it amiss.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

I'm no lawyer and very well could be wrong, but.....

IMO, it doesn't pass the straight face test to think they wrote the laws in a way that people can be both a resident and a non-resident at the same time.

And I can't imagine standing in front of a judge and claim that even though I live in another state, I'm a resident of UT because I have a UT ID card.


Having switch state residency in the past between AZ and CA, I've learned a few things so I did some quick checking for UT and it appears be the same in terms of the following.

Whether you apply for a UT I'D or a UT DL, you have to show proof of residency.

I'm order to get UT drivers license you'd have to surrender your TX DL.

If you want a UT ID and have a UT DL, you have to surrender your UT DL to get the UT ID.

You need to surrender one to get the other.

It also doesn't make sense that you've somehow correctly aquired a UT ID card which you need residency in UT to get and also have a TX DL which you have to show residency in TX to get.

The docs you need to get the UT ID



Note the part that says "principal Utah residence address".


You live in TX. Your principle residence is not in UT.

If you had 2 houses in UT and actually lived in UT, youd have a princple UT residence address and a secondary address.

But since you live in TX, you dont have a "principal Utah residence address"

I am sure if i had applied for a Utah DL they would have asked me to surrender my Texas Dl. However i obtained a Utah ID so they did not ask me to surrender anything. I showed my birth certificate and Passport as proof of identity.

When asked to show proof of residency, i showed them my deed for the property i Own, and the utah registration/title for a vehicle i keep full time in Utah. i also showed a utility bill (electric) for the utah property.

This as far as the Utah ID goes, i satisfied their requirement for residency.

While many want to push you can only be a resident of one state. I push that in fact you can be a resident of more then one. Just like you can be a citizen/resident of more then one country. So can you be of two states. Especially if i am paying property taxes in more then one state, as well as income taxes, if one did make income in that state.

However, What does it actually take to prove residency? How many nights one spends in a location? There are 12 months in a year. So if i spend exactly 6 months there and 6 months here. Which state is my residence?

 

[boom boom]

I am sure if i had applied for a Utah DL they would have asked me to surrender my Texas Dl. However i obtained a Utah ID so they did not ask me to surrender anything. I showed my birth certificate and Passport as proof of identity.

When asked to show proof of residency, i showed them my deed for the property i Own, and the utah registration/title for a vehicle i keep full time in Utah. i also showed a utility bill (electric) for the utah property.

This as far as the Utah ID goes, i satisfied their requirement for residency.

While many want to push you can only be a resident of one state. I push that in fact you can be a resident of more then one. Just like you can be a citizen/resident of more then one country. So can you be of two states. Especially if i am paying property taxes in more then one state, as well as income taxes, if one did make income in that state.

However, What does it actually take to prove residency? How many nights one spends in a location? There are 12 months in a year. So if i spend exactly 6 months there and 6 months here. Which state is my residence?

Most of it is up to states to figure it out and that which is not prohibited by state laws is legal.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Most of it is up to states to figure it out and that which is not prohibited by state laws is legal.

Personally i think most states are
more concerned about paying taxes and getting your money. As a resident you will pay taxes a Non-resident wouldnt normally pay. Such as income tax or property tax.

I dont think Utah would truthfully care how much time i am actually there since i own land and pay property tax.

I contacted a lawyer in Utah, for the purpose of a resident Utah LTC, all you need is a Utah ID or DL. If you meet the requirements to get one of those. Then thats all that matters. He said since i was able to show a deed, property tax bill, utility bill, and a vehicle titled and registered in Utah. Then as far as Utah is concerned I am a resident contributing to their Tax base.

 

[danez71]

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