Legit 1" groups

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ford8nr

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Had an interesting discussion while taking a break at the range yesterday. I had just shot a 1" 5 shot group @ 100yds off a bench using a front bag. The discussion centered who shoots, and what is a legit 1" (1moa) group. The options / discussion included **my thoughts in ().
Can you shoot 1/2 inch at 50 and CLAIM 1" at 100 (NO),
Does it take 3,5 or more shots for a group (5),
Can you shoot it off a lead sled (NO),
Can you use a front bag (YES),
Can you use a rear bag (?).
Does a 1" group have to be measured (YES YES YES)

What say you?
 
I would say it depends entirely on who/what you're claiming the 1'' group for.

My rifle shoots 1'' groups - go ahead and strap it down in a leadsled

I can shoot 1'' groups - better be able to back it up

If you wanted to show me you can shoot 1'' groups, I'd want to see at least a 5 shot group, or multiple 3 shot groups. Bi-pod or sling if you're trying to prove your point. A 1 MOA group isn't exactly a huge deal off bags...
 
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....interesting. I would think MOA rifle is the potential of the RIFLE and not the shooter. If the rifle can shoot 1/2" at 50 yards, 1" at 100 yards or 8" at 800 yards by using any means of support or even a machine rest the rifle is shooting MOA.

It is up to the SHOOTER to be able utilize the full potential of the Rifle.

Just my thoughts....others will surely vary.

'loose
 
Sure, there are a lot of rifles out there that are capable of shooting 1 MOA and many fewer shooters who can deliver. I would not consider myself a great rifle shot, and I have rifles that are much more accurate than I am.

There is a huge difference in saying "this is an accurate rifle" and "I am an accurate shooter"
 
ford8nr,

Add this to your list,can you do it on command, at least 9 out of ten times in all wind conditions ?
 
I think a good test to see if an individual can shoot 1MOA with a rifle is being able to shoot 5 consecutive groups of 5 shots each that average under the criteria that you are claiming, with a majority of the groups under the criteria you are claiming. I.E., I shoot five 5 shot groups at 100 yards, one is .75", three are 1.00", and the final is 1.15". Both the mean and the median of that string are MOA or better, thus I consider that shooter and that rifle to be MOA.

If you're only testing the gun, and not the shooter, then feel free to shoot it out of a vice. If you're going to claim that YOU can shoot sub-MOA with a rifle, at the bare minimum you need to be shooting off of bags. I don't think it matters whether you use front and rear bags or not. Off the bench, I prefer to ball up my left fist under the butt like a bag anyways, so it doesn't really make much difference.

A good number of rifles can shoot 1 MOA the average and majority of the time with the right loads. A whole lot more rifles can shoot MOA once every now and then, and thus there owners claim them to be "MOA guns" based on cherry-picked groups. That's just crap.

There's also a lot more rifles out there that consistently shoot MOA than shooters out there that consistently shoot MOA.
 
When developing loads I only use three shot groups, why? Because thin little 22" hunting barrels heat up way too quick, now I might (and do quite often) let the barrel completly cool and fire another 3 round group into the first, do six round groups count? LOL. I am first and foremost a hunter, only shot I am really concerned with is the first shot on a cold bore, I could care less what barrel heat will do to my shot group on the 4th and 5th round, so no I count three shot groups in featherweight hunting rifles, if I had a heavyweight match rifle I would use 5 round strings.
 
All of my rifles are hunting rifles and I'll never fire more than 2-3 shots, usually only 1 so I could care less about more than 3 shot groups. What I'm interested in is consistency. Five consecutive 3 shot groups spread out over several range trips tell me what I want to know. And is just as inforrmative as three 5 shot groups. If my rifles consistently shoot under 1 MOA I call it a MOA gun. Or even 1/2 MOA at times.
 
Can you shoot 1/2 inch at 50 and CLAIM 1" at 100 (NO),
Does it take 3,5 or more shots for a group (5),
Can you shoot it off a lead sled (NO),
Can you use a front bag (YES),
Can you use a rear bag (?).
Does a 1" group have to be measured (YES YES YES)

What say you?
Click to expand...

Now, for my answers:

If you are testing the gun:
  1. No
  2. 5 minimum, 10 is better
  3. Yes
  4. Yes
  5. Yes
  6. Yes, center to center

If you are testing the shooter:

  1. No
  2. 5 minimum
  3. No
  4. Yes
  5. I prefer not to, but that is because I usually don't have on in the field. I won't count it against someone.
  6. Yes, center to center
 
I can see the 3 shot group for a thin barreled hunting rifle. I actually rate a lot of mine this way, but usually make a note when I claim it that they are MOA 3-shot guns, not MOA guns.

I think you get a nodal behavior in shooter behavior that makes the 5 shot group the best one to work up loads with. I find you have to be really on your A-game to use 3 shot groups to compare. There's too much chance of a little bit of shooter error impacting group size with a 3-shot group.

A five shot group is usually a little easier to pick out the tightest group. A ten shot group can tend to get a little messy if you're not really shooting good. Most people get awful tired by the end of a ten shot string for accuracy.

Barrel heat is a real issue for groups out of sporting rifles. I usually take my shot strings slow. If I'm working up loads, I will do it for two rifles at once, and alternate between them to allow the barrels a chance to cool between each group. I've found this to work very well. A 3 shot group to start with to warm up the barrel and get all the solvent out also helps.
 
I measure R50 instead of group size. R50 is radius of the smallest circle centered at the target that covers centers of 50% of hits. It has three advantages over group size:

1. Does not depend on number of shots;
2. Is easy to interpret ("at this distance I can hit such circle with 50% probability");
3. Lets me concentrate on beating my own result from last range trip rather than a number somebody posted on the Internet.

Well, it can be converted (1" 5 shot group corresponds to R50=0.4", 1" 10 shot group to R50=0.3") but I'm too lazy to do that.
 
PPS, 1) I like the probability part, would work good for hunting camparisons, yet I'd be concerned where the 'other' 50% went. 2) What part of group size can't you compete against yourself with? I'm always trying to shoot better groups then I did last time, don't really care what others are shooting unless we're keeping score. How does the R50 work for load development when your not counting fliers?
 
cal30, funny you should mention 10 shot groups. I had to go to 10 shot groups when testing ammo for my 2 target .22lr's. Five shot groups were too tight to pick up stringing or inconsistancies in each brand.
 
My rifle shoots 1'' groups - go ahead and strap it down in a leadsled

I can shoot 1'' groups - better be able to back it up
Click to expand...

This.

I have a few rifles that shoot .5-.75 MOA 5-shot groups with my handloads @ 100 yards off a sled or dual bags; With these rifles, I can consistently shoot 1-1.25 MOA 5 shot groups with just a front rest (bag, bi-pod, improvised) and a stabile postion.

In other words, I find that my human error tends to increase the group size by 1/2 to 3/4 MOA..

I don't think I can consistently shoot sub-MOA with anything not using a full rest. I've done it, many times, but it might be one or two out of a dozen groups.
 
I've generally been able to tweak a rifle and work up loads which are reliably a bit better than one MOA. A few are commonly right at half-MOA. That's with five-shot groups.

Once I've established that, I rarely bother with groups of more than three shots. For a hunting rifle, more than three doesn't tell me anything useful.

Since 1983 I've had a bench rest on the front porch, for my 100-yard target. I just use sandbags fore and aft; no lead-sled thingummies. When hunting, I generally hold my left hand right behind the front sling swivel, so that's where I put the front sandbag.
 
I just use sandbags fore and aft; no lead-sled thingummies.
Click to expand...

I find bags preferable for accuracy work in general. I find the lead sled preferable for accuracy work with my 8mm mag, .350 mag and .375 RUM. Those critters beat ya up pretty good with regular bags.
 
By reading the threads on this and other boards over the years I have come to the conclusion that you only need to shoot one 3 shot group that is under 1". After that you can say it shoots sub MOA ALL DAY LONG. The photo of this group MUST contain a quarter for some reason as well.
 
"How long does one wait between shots."

I've never timed it. But, I'm in no hurry. I remove the fired case and put it in the cartridge box. I rather leisurely take out the next round and set it in the receiver. I may wait maybe five or ten seconds before closing the bolt. Then I take whatever time is needed to get the crosshairs back on target.

Just guessing, then, when testing a new rifle or a new load, maybe somewhere between thirty seconds and a minute between rounds. Probably closer to a minute...

Through the years, I've worked up a half-dozen rifles with which I could fire quite rapid three shot groups from the bench and get sub-MOA groups.

But I've been messing with all that stuff for a long, long time. :)
 
Kachok said:
Unless you shoot a Tikka in which case you can use a dime, a thumbtack, or just put your calipers on it
Click to expand...


My Tikka would shoot 3 inch groups all day long if I did my part. You could cover them with a grapefruit.

BTW What are you stating here in your signature? "Tikka T3 because 1/8th MOA is much better then I can ever shoot in the field anyway"
 
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How long does one wait between shots.
Click to expand...

I set a timer so I can evenly space out my shots. It doesn't matter how long as long as you are consistent about it. That goes for pretty much everything when it comes to accuracy though.
 
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