HarcyPervin
Member
I swear dubbleA has an alert function that notifies him every time someone claims accuracy with a Tikka 
Legit 1" groups
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Sav .250
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The end game is to fire what ever ammo your using at your target. The ensuing holes make up a group (what ever you think that should be) What was used (bench rest, lead sled, etc ) should have no bearing on your grouping. As some shot off hand, kneeling, what ever. there grouping is just that ....grouping.
In competition shooting all sorts of help aids are used to get a grouping for scoring purposes.
Competition, hunting and fun shooting all can have groups but there evaluation is very different.
All groupings are not created equally but are groups none the less.
In competition shooting all sorts of help aids are used to get a grouping for scoring purposes.
Competition, hunting and fun shooting all can have groups but there evaluation is very different.
All groupings are not created equally but are groups none the less.
cal30_sniper
Member
When testing out load development or trying to really work with a rifle for groups, I will wait a minute or longer between shots. I usually fire, eject the case, leave the bolt open so the chamber and barrel can cool easier, slide over to the spotting scope and check where the round hit. Then I'll go back to the rifle, and dry fire 3-5 rounds at the target just like I was shooting. This helps not only to let the rifle cool, but it also keeps the shooter honest. You really see how smoothly you're breaking the trigger when there's no recoil to cover up how far you pull off the target. After several rounds of dryfiring, I'll load up the next one and settle back in.
After each group, I usually get up, walk around, stretch, etc. As I mentioned before, I also like to switch rifles between groups to help keep the barrels cool.
Now, if I'm working with my hunting rifle or practicing to see how I can group from different stances, I'll fire a 3 round string as fast as I can reasonably work the bolt and get back on target. That's where you really start to see how well you and the rifle can shoot under a slight amount of pressure.
1" groups at 100 yards... not bad for showing what the rifle can do.
Now, triple that distance.
Taking a 223 55gr at 3200fps;
100 yard direct 10mph crosswind drifts .99".
You can screw up the wind read miserably and STILL (theoretically) hold a 1" group.
Now do it at 300 yards, where that same 223 bullet drifts over 10". Now your shooting comes in to play, because if you don't read the environment right, you are WAY the heck off target.
Now, triple that distance.
Taking a 223 55gr at 3200fps;
100 yard direct 10mph crosswind drifts .99".
You can screw up the wind read miserably and STILL (theoretically) hold a 1" group.
Now do it at 300 yards, where that same 223 bullet drifts over 10". Now your shooting comes in to play, because if you don't read the environment right, you are WAY the heck off target.
cal30_sniper
Member
You may be off the center of the target, but as long as the wind is steady and not gusting, the bullets will all still go to the same place.
Grouping is exactly that, no matter where the bullets are actually landing. Now scoring, that's where reading the environment comes into play.
Grouping is exactly that, no matter where the bullets are actually landing. Now scoring, that's where reading the environment comes into play.
hey_poolboy
Member
I always try to shoot in a similar manner to how I would in the field. I will lay prone and shoot off of a bipod or my backpack with my fist as a rear bag.
My varmint gun is a medium barrel and even off of my pack and a rolled up coat with handloads I can get four shot groups (one mag) of .75"-1.25" @ 235 yds. That's if I'm shooting well. That rifle groups better @ 200 than it does at 100 all day long.
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My varmint gun is a medium barrel and even off of my pack and a rolled up coat with handloads I can get four shot groups (one mag) of .75"-1.25" @ 235 yds. That's if I'm shooting well. That rifle groups better @ 200 than it does at 100 all day long.
Sent from my Motorola Galaxy s3 using Tapatalk 2
Agreed, but I have YET to meet a wind that would steadily hold the same through a string. Maybe on the flat plains of Kansas, or Nebraska, or something, but not around here.
cal30_sniper
Member
Agreed, but I have YET to meet a wind that would steadily hold the same through a string. Maybe on the flat plains of Kansas, or Nebraska, or something, but not around here.
Now that, is a true story.
"It taught the coyote to howl makes the tumbleweeds roll
It controlled the migration of the great buffalo
Makes the salt cedar sing and the cottonwood bend
Your constant companion is the panhandle wind"
Kachok
Member
My Tikka 6.5x55 will punch tiny little one hole groups with 129gr SSTs over 45.5gr of RL19 with PPU brass and a Remington primer loaded to 3.098", best group measured .346" outside diameter, technically 1/12th MOA but some make the case that the bullet holes in the paper are not true .264 caliber so call that at leased 1/8th MOA, and yes that was on dual sandbags letting the barrel cool about 90 seconds between each shot. I'll load some more of them up if you ever want to come and see for yourself
I could never shoot that tight propped up on a tree limb or out of a stand so I say that is better then I could ever shoot in the field anyway, there may very well be more accurate rifles out there, but they would not do me any better then my little sissy kicker.
I would have liked to have seen this 3" Tikka you keep talking about, I would bet good money my pet 30-06 loads would have tightened it up quite a bit unless it was a total defective fluke.
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Hangingrock
Member
A two minute of angle capable rifle under all circumstances is better than the shooters capability when they get off the bench and have to shoot from field positions.
cal30_sniper
Member
Under MOST circumstances. Some people out there can shoot better than 2MOA from field positions. I personally can shoot well under 2MOA from the prone, and can usually equal or better 2MOA from the kneeling. Now, take away my tackdriver 6.5x55 and give me a 2MOA '06, and my groups are suddenly going to be much worse. Not the shooter's fault, that's the rifles fault.
Both of those are shooting positions that aren't too uncommon in hunting out west. Heck, a lot of people hunt from blinds, which pretty much are benchrests. Although not as important as a good shooter, an accurate rifle is still important.
allaroundhunter
Member
But let's also be honest. Most of the time when you are shooting from unsupported field positions the shot is under 200 yards and one is hunting.... A gun that will shoot 5 MOA will still put a shot in the kill zone of most large game animals.
Kachok
Member
Well I can assure you that I will never hunt with a 5 MOA load EVER. The more accurate the rifle the better, there is no downside to accuracy. The worst shooting load I ever thought about hunting with was about a 1.5" shooter, but I guess I am OCD like that.
You are correct that a group is a group. When I'm load developing I really don't care where it hits, I'm looking for group size. Usually it's within a couple of inches of the previous load. Once I find a pet load I can dial in the scope.
allaround, I'd never hunt with a 5MOA rifle. If your a 3MOA shooter in hunting positions you'll potentially never shoot 3MOA. The rifle will be your limit at 5MOA, add your 3MOA and on a bad shot your looking at 8MOA or 8" @ 100 or 16" at 200. 
I NEVER want my rifle to be my limit. This year had an opportunity at a nice 8ptr crossing a clearcut edge at around 150yds. I was gonna let him walk the clearcut edge to my son until he stopped and turned away from me. As he walked toward the new growth Aspen he slightly quartered giving me a tight angle shot. Knowing what my rifle would do and having confidence in my bullet selection I threaded a shot and he dropped in his tracks. Shooting a 3MOA rifle I wouldn't have taked the shot.
I NEVER want my rifle to be my limit. This year had an opportunity at a nice 8ptr crossing a clearcut edge at around 150yds. I was gonna let him walk the clearcut edge to my son until he stopped and turned away from me. As he walked toward the new growth Aspen he slightly quartered giving me a tight angle shot. Knowing what my rifle would do and having confidence in my bullet selection I threaded a shot and he dropped in his tracks. Shooting a 3MOA rifle I wouldn't have taked the shot.
cal30_sniper
Member
allaround, I'd never hunt with a 5MOA rifle. If your a 3MOA shooter in hunting positions you'll potentially never shoot 3MOA. The rifle will be your limit at 5MOA, add your 3MOA and on a bad shot your looking at 8MOA or 8" @ 100 or 16" at 200.
That's exactly it. Unless you shoot a one-hole gun, the rifle will ALWAYS be your limit. Even a 1MOA rifle adds another potential 1MOA to whatever shooting position that you can physically hold. If you can hold 1MOA using a laser, and your rifle is a 1MOA rifle, then you will have a 2MOA group over any substantial string of fire. It is possible that you will get lucky, and a few shots will pile on top of each other every now and then, but you have no certainty within what part of that 2MOA each shot will land.
Now, take your average shooter, who might be able to hold 4MOA unsupported. Throw a 2 or 3MOA rifle into the mix, and they're now shooting 6-7MOA. Shots beyond 100 yards suddenly got dicey. Give that same shooter a tack driving 1/2MOA or better gun, and they will still be shooting 4MOA. Now a 200 yard shot doesn't look so bad. That's the difference a good rifle makes.
MachIVshooter
Member
Tuj-
Now do that from a bipod or improvised rest. That's the point of this thread; There are lots of sub-MOA rifles, not so many sub-MOA shooters. Getting consistent sub-MOA 5 or 10 shot groups from a field position is no easy task, even for seasoned shooters with a very accurate rifle.
My two premier varmint rifles average .67 and .72 MOA 5-shot, 200 yard groups from a sandbagged rest. Shooting off a bi-pod, my groups pretty well double that size. I am a ~3/4 MOA shooter with a front rest and stabile position, so add 3/4 MOA to whatever the rifle & load are capable of. I'm about a 4-5 MOA shooter standing & unsupported.
Now do that from a bipod or improvised rest. That's the point of this thread; There are lots of sub-MOA rifles, not so many sub-MOA shooters. Getting consistent sub-MOA 5 or 10 shot groups from a field position is no easy task, even for seasoned shooters with a very accurate rifle.
My two premier varmint rifles average .67 and .72 MOA 5-shot, 200 yard groups from a sandbagged rest. Shooting off a bi-pod, my groups pretty well double that size. I am a ~3/4 MOA shooter with a front rest and stabile position, so add 3/4 MOA to whatever the rifle & load are capable of. I'm about a 4-5 MOA shooter standing & unsupported.
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Hangingrock
Member
Lets put it this way from the standing position with no artificial support what would be your score on an SR 200yd target. The aiming black X ring 3", 10 ring 7" and the 9 ring 13". The score total for twenty rounds fired would be what with a one minute of angle rifle than a two minute of angle of rifle?
Actually the point of this thread is what do YOU consider a legit 100yd 1MOA (1") group ?
You're view might be shoot 2 shots off a lead sled at 25yds and multiple x4
I just get tired of people telling me their shooting 1" groups when I look at their targets and their 3 shots cover 2+ inches. Shooting 1" 5 shot groups off a front bag consistantly is tougher then most people give it credit. Now maybe not most on a shooting forum, but in the general shooting public.
Pete D.
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Hmmm
How about a six shot group? The flyer was the first shot. I was sighting in the gun after getting it on the paper from the bench.
It had been shooting high and left.
Actually, I don't care about the group. This set of five just happens to be an inch. I care about 10s and Xs. The ten shots after this had the same ratio of Xs/tens/9s but was a larger group.
Shot at 100 yards. Prone. Sling. Iron sights.
Sierra 77gr. MatchKing, 24.0 grs of RL15, Win brass and primers.
How about a six shot group? The flyer was the first shot. I was sighting in the gun after getting it on the paper from the bench.
It had been shooting high and left.
Actually, I don't care about the group. This set of five just happens to be an inch. I care about 10s and Xs. The ten shots after this had the same ratio of Xs/tens/9s but was a larger group.
Shot at 100 yards. Prone. Sling. Iron sights.
Sierra 77gr. MatchKing, 24.0 grs of RL15, Win brass and primers.
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I'd give it to you based on your first shot was a flier, next 5 in a group. But...that's not saying you're shooting that group consistantly. My biggest problems is changing guns, I have to remember to shoot worst trigger to best trigger. Shooting a good trigger then switching to a iffy one really throws me for a shot or two. If we were counting 5 shot scores you still only shot a 49.
cal30_sniper
Member
Okay, I probably went way over what you were looking for, but I had some free time on my hands, so I wrote some MATLAB code that simulates the exact scenario you described.
The Grouping Math: I used a 3.5MOA offhand group, because I'd say that's representative of what I can fire offhand on a really good day when I'm settled in. That's gives a 7" 20 shot group at 200 yards with a "laser beam" 0MOA rifle. Now, factor in 1MOA for the rifle. That adds an extra inch to either side of my group (1MOA/2 = 0.5" to either side at 100 yards, or 1.0" at 200 yards), opening it up to a 9" 20 shot group at 200 yards. Now, take a 2MOA rifle, under the same conditions, and you've added 2" to either side of the group, or a 11" group.
The Shooting Math: I used a random number generator for 20 shots, with the limit being zero to half of whatever the inch wide group calculated above was (representing distance from the bullseye to where the shot landed, assuming your group is centered on Point of Aim, which it should be. I then used a simple counting algorithm. If the random number was less than or equal to 1.5", you got 10 points and an X. If it was greater than 1.5", but less than or equal to 3.5", you got 10 points. If it was greater than 3.5", you get 9 points.
Results: Every now and then, the 2MOA numbers are better than the 1MOA numbers. However, once you start averaging it over multiple groups, the 1MOA rifle score is almost always higher than the 2MOA rifle score. Averaged over 10,000 groups, which shows no variation between points from run to run, you get a final average of 195.7 with 6.5X for the 1MOA rifle and 192.7 with 5.4X for the 2MOA rifle.
Conclusion: The average rounded score for a 3.5MOA shooter with a 1MOA rifle is 196 with 7X. The average rounded score for a 3.5MOA shooter with a 2MOA rifle is 193 with 5X. A difference of 3 points and 2 bullseyes.
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