LEO Equipment; Lowest Bidder.

[one45auto]

It always astounds me that some people consider the Glock to be unsafe yet they function essentially the same as a double-action revolver - namely that they don't fire unless you pull the trigger. Police departments, to say nothing of the Feds, got along very well with revolvers and some still do. How many Glock bashers, I wonder, have revolvers at home and rely upon and/or carry them?

The issue of liability is a mute point in my opinion because in civil cases, where a department is being sued by some miscreant or their survivors, the ambulance chaser representing the alleged "victim" will question the safety of any weapon used in their efforts to win monetary awards for their client. Believing they'd avoid doing so simply because the officer in question used a Sig or HK instead of a Glock is pure foolishness.

 

[280PLUS]

Although I'm not selling firearms,

I try to sell quality stuff because I know it lasts and is better built. I can tell you it's tough to sell the good stuff cause 90% (my guess) are looking at the bottom line and not quality. Sad but true. I can talk about quality and efficiency and longevity till I'm blue in the face and it still boils down to the bottom line in most cases.

Sure I can make it cheaper, I just have to buy inferior stuff.

For just one example I have a builder right now who prefers the 275 Gallon oil tank to the 330 gallon because I can give him the 275 for $50 cheaper. FIFTY CRUMMY DOLLARS!!

So I'm guessing my point is it goes on everywhere.

Thanks for the insight on the recent Glock craze.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Ayoob and using what the cop's use

This thread brings to light a very good point for those interested in trying to alleviate liability risk via using the same platforms (and ammo) as what the cops use (ala Ayoob). LEO agencies often do settle for the lowest bid for a product that meets some basic criteria. That means that at least of the the criteria is cost.

The criteria by which LEO agencies select guns may have very little to do with the criteria that individual citizens feel is appropriate when it comes to protecting their own lives.

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

When I worked for a large PD located in the Atlanta metro area I had the chance to ask the Chief to approve my personal gun for duty, but he declined.

I eventually asked him why they choose the Glock and how they went about the process.

He said that when he took office everyone was carrying Smith 5906 9mm and he wanted them to upgrade to something more modern, to use his words.

The selection of guns chosen to evaluate went like this, the old timers still wanted Smiths so a sample of the latest .40 autoloader was purchased from Smith, Beretta loaned them a pair of pistols, one in 9mm the other a .40 caliber. SIG sold them a refurbished P229 in .40 and a P226 in 9mm. HK would not even talk to them unless they agreed to buy sight-unseen 150 USP’s and outfit the entire department.

Glock drove in from Smyrna in a large truck, which according to him looked like a gun store on wheels complete with onboard gunsmith shop.

Provided over 20 test pistols and ammo, stayed two days and allowed nearly every officer to shoot any model of Glock they wanted. Gave everyone hats, pins, shirts and free pistol stuff to those who already owned Glocks. Agreed to buy all the departments pistols in as trade towards the Glocks AND provided them with a bunch of Safariland 295 level II holsters.

In the end the SIG scored highest based on the tests they preformed, having only a single malfunction.

But when city counsel made their decision the only question they asked of the Chief was which one cost less.

 

[rock jock]

How many LEO's have been in danger because of a defective Glock? I'm willing to bet none, or very close to that number. Safety and endurance testing are fine, but if it doesn't reflect actual use, even in unusual situations, what good is it? Kimber makes a big deal about the LAPD SWAT using their TLE model, but I would guess that the LAPD chose Kimber only because they couldn't afford Wilson or Ed Brown. There are no perfect guns, and sometimes you have to settle for "good enough."

Besides, that's what BUGs are for.

 

[roo_ster]

After using much issue gear in the service of Uncle Sam, I am always astounded by folks who justify their purchase by referencing a government organization's use of the item.

What sends me into fits of laughter is the folks who talk about how this or that is "mil-spec" and use that to justify their purchase. Let us set one thing straight: just because it is "mil-spec" doesn't mean it is not a piece of trash. The A#1 case in point was the old gear used to rig up the ruck for a jump. What an abortion! What a jury-rigged, confidence-sapping, mess!

*********

The idea that a LEA ought to buy all the same weapon is one only bean-counting, simpering, weasels could love. This was brought home to me when a small gal I knew signed on to a local PD which issues only the Beretta 96 in .40S&W. She was forced to hold & shoot the darn thing with the web of her hand on the side grip panel and her thumb underneath the grip tang, as her hands were too small to grip the big Beretta properly.

The Beretta may be a fine weapon...but it was an atrocious choice for her. She qualified with it, but never liked it and shot any number of weapons (better suited to her hand) with more speed and accuracy. Hey, what is her life worth compared to the warm & fuzzy feeling management gets when all their subordinates carry the same weapon?

 

[Pilgrim]

The idea that a LEA ought to buy all the same weapon is one only bean-counting, simpering, weasels could love. This was brought home to me when a small gal I knew signed on to a local PD which issues only the Beretta 96 in .40S&W. She was forced to hold & shoot the darn thing with the web of her hand on the side grip panel and her thumb underneath the grip tang, as her hands were too small to grip the big Beretta properly.

I was the department's firearms instructor for six years when the department's issue was Smith & Wesson 5906s and 6906s. Through trial and error I discovered that any deputy with hands smaller than mine had problems qualifying with the department issue. I suggested to the department that it buy some single stack magazine pistols like the 3906 for those deputies with small hands. All I received was a blank stare from the lowest levels of management on up.

It wasn't that the department was broke. There was asset forfeiture money that could be used to buy the pistols. It was the concept that the equipment be modified or tailored to fit the deputy that was foreign to their thinking.

Pilgrim

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

How many LEO's have been in danger because of a defective Glock? I'm willing to bet none, or very close to that number.

The last line of duty shooting the central GA area saw involved the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, State Patrol, Houston County S.O. The City of Perry P.D. and my agency.

There were 11 officers 9 of who fired weapons all carry the Glock 22. 3 of the pistols jammed, one jammed twice.


Numbers like that are not unique, in NYC out of every 10 LOD shootings they have two guns reported to jam during the active exchange of gunfire.

The State of GA issues Glock 22’s to DNR Rangers, At out last qualification we were made aware that in the past 12 months out of 197 Rangers 4 had suffered failures with Glocks during weapons discharges, although none were LOD shootings they were destroying animals but nonetheless the gun still failed when they needed it.

 

[rock jock]

The last line of duty shooting the central GA area saw involved the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, State Patrol, Houston County S.O. The City of Perry P.D. and my agency.

There were 11 officers 9 of who fired weapons all carry the Glock 22. 3 of the pistols jammed, one jammed twice.

Numbers like that are not unique, in NYC out of every 10 LOD shootings they have two guns reported to jam during the active exchange of gunfire.

The State of GA issues Glock 22’s to DNR Rangers, At out last qualification we were made aware that in the past 12 months out of 197 Rangers 4 had suffered failures with Glocks during weapons discharges, although none were LOD shootings they were destroying animals but nonetheless the gun still failed when they needed it.

Listen, I am not a big Glock fan. I only have one left and rarely shoot it. BUT, w/o any evidence to the contrary, I am not willing to attribute the incidents you list to a problem with the gun. I have personally witnessed, as I am sure every other experienced shooter on this board including yourself, FTF/FTE's from quality guns of all makes. In almost every case, the fault has been the shooter - everything from limp-wristing to poor maintenance to poor quality ammo (the latter is probably not the case with with LEO weapons).

Given the almost ubiquitous ultra-reliability of Glocks, I seriously question a 20% failure rate that is attributable to the gun. In fact, I would question a 5% failure rate.

 

[cgv69]

Hi Glenn,

Then certainly you do not mean the Glock

Yes I certainly do and I say that after owning one for over 10 years now. I will admit, I do not shoot anywhere near as often as a lot of people here do but I know I've put a lot more rounds through mine than the average LEO has.

The Glock Model 19 utilized by the now defunct US Customs was not what you described as far as I can tell.

Not saying this isn't true but it is the first I've heard of it. The only large dept\group that I've seen any documented proof of consistent problems with a Glock 19 (or any model Glock) is the NYC police. Not so coincidently IMO, they are also the only large dept that I know of who ordered their weapons modified from the original design. Funny thing about Glocks, they are typically most reliable when they are factory stock as they were originally designed.

several changes in the design of the magazine that required each an every agent (I cannot speak to the inspectional side of Customs on this issue) who has had a Glock since they were first issued getting newly issued mags 3 or 4 times

Sorry but I'm going to have to call BS on that. There have only been 5 magazine changes in the 20+ years Glocks have been around. 3 of those did happen with in the last 10 years but I'm only aware of one of those being a "fix". The others were simply improvements.

internal problems with the pistols that required field or armorer modification, a small plastic internal part that breaks or cracks with some consistency, saftety concerns that required replacement or modification of the trigger group or associated parts, now yearly disassembly the firing pin/striker assembly and cleaning of the housng for that assembly because a design feature allowed for build up of brass in that area that can cause the pistol to malfumction as I have been informed after only hundreds of rounds, separation of metal parts from the polymer frame,

Unless you have some credible documentation that goes into more detail then I'm going to call BS on this too, at least as far as these being wide spread problems. Glocks are mechanical devices and just like all mechanical device, some will have problems or parts breakage. No weapon is immune to that but over all, Glocks have an excellent track record of reliable service.

replacement of the slide stop/release lever because it was considered too small to be reliability operated under combat conditions,

That's not a problem with the Glock, that is somebody's (or some groups) personal opinion or preference. The problem is, people try to use it as a slide release and that is not the way it was designed to be used but that said, the factory slide stop works and lasts just fine when used as designed.

Furthermore, I believe the rate of accidental discharges (mostly among inspectional personnel as was reported to me) rose significantly after the Glocks were issued. This was apparently partly due to the fact that in order to clear the weapon for disassembly (or even to make it safe - as per Glock) you have to squeeze the trigger. Just that fact alone, that the trigger needed to be squeezed in order to make it safe and disassemble the pistol, put up the red flags in my mind before Customs ever bought one of them. It goes against all the training we have had, over the many years I have been in service, and over the 14 or so years that I was a FI, concerning when the finger belongs on the trigger.

Huh, you are going to blame Glock for stupid operators? ! You do not "pull the trigger to make it safe" You remove the magazine and clear the chamber to make it safe. If some idiot is trying to disassemble a weapon without first checking to make sure it's unloaded than that's not Glock's fault. BTW, Glock is not the only gun that needs to have to trigger pulled to disassemble the firearm.

What you are calling ADs (accidental discharges ) are really NDs (negligent discharges). Just like that idiot DEA agent in the video that going around the net right now. He shot himself because he is an idiot, not because he was carrying a Glock.

Also the fact that you can also bend the frame as you reassemble the pistol, causing the slide to not go on correctly is another detraction.

That statement really makes it hard for me to believe that you have ever owned a Glock. It is flat out not true. You would have to be putting a LOT more pressure on that frame then you would ever be able to justify in order to "bend" it to the point that you could not properly install the slide. I have disassembled\reassembled my Glock a lot more times than I can count and have never even come close to bending the frame or improperly installing the slide.

Under the stress of combat it is possible that you could make the pistol inoperable. Sure it is not likely that the slide will be off of the gun in combat, but a combat situation could arise when you are cleaning a weapon thereby requiring quick reassembly under great stress. I would much rather have one that went on right no matter how much I stress the frame.

Well Again, I say this is not a real issue or concern. Secondly, we are not talking about combat. Thirdly even in a combat zone, the likely hood of being attacked while you are in the process of cleaning your weapon is pretty low and lastly, it don't care what weapon you are carrying, if is in pieces in your hand when somebody starts shooting at you then I'm willing to bet you are going to have a hell of a time putting it back together but I don't believe the average person would have any harder time reassembling a Glock then any other gun and probably easier then most.

As stated earlier, no weapon is right for everybody. IMO, where possible, dept's should give their officers\agents a weapon allowance and certain parameters to stay within and then let them choose their own weapons. If they are using an acceptable caliber, can qualify and feel comfortable with it then that is all I would ask.

I am no Glock zelic. I like them and they work well for me but I realize they will not be right for everybody and they are not perfect. I just get tired of people slamming them simply because they do not like them. Any weapon deployed in any large quantity is going to have some problems. Sigs and HKs are no different but for some reason it seems like every time somebody hears about a problem with a Glock it becomes a big ol' "Glocks are nothing but trash" thread.

Just my $.02

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Furthermore, I believe the rate of accidental discharges (mostly among inspectional personnel as was reported to me) rose significantly after the Glocks were issued. This was apparently partly due to the fact that in order to clear the weapon for disassembly (or even to make it safe - as per Glock) you have to squeeze the trigger. Just that fact alone, that the trigger needed to be squeezed in order to make it safe and disassemble the pistol, put up the red flags in my mind before Customs ever bought one of them. It goes against all the training we have had, over the many years I have been in service, and over the 14 or so years that I was a FI, concerning when the finger belongs on the trigger.

I have to take issue with this statement as well. I have owned a Glock for almost four years. I've trained myself to simply check the chamber before pulling the trigger. Even if I just cleared the weapon and can see the magazine and extra round sitting there I still pull the slide back and check the chamber for a live round.
Sometimes I even do it if I've checked the chamber and dry-fired it already. It's that automatic. In those four years I have NEVER had a negligent discharge, knock on wood. And I'm not even a firearms instructor. If a college student can do it by himself, I think a trained professional had better be able to do it too.




Honestly, I don't doubt that some agencies would like to buy different guns if they had the money. For whatever reason. So Glock markets aggressively and offers discounts and takes trades. That's good business! But I don't think it's reasonable, considering the positive experiences so many people have had with Glocks, to say that the lowest bidder is junk.

 

[Kilroy]

Of course there is the report, NIJ if I recall, where the only pistol that failed the drop test was the Sig 229.

Then of course, the Sig 220 has a peculiar circumstance that would allow the user to cause a pistol that fires when dropped.

A major state agency is in litigation over the Finger Pull Length of their Sig products, which happens to be outside a majority of the adult US population's ability to safely point and use that pistol. They are now leaning toward "reasonable accomodation" and permitting other pistols for smaller handed users.

My last issue pistol was a Sig 228 that was just fine, but prone to rust.

The cost issue is a red herring as it allows one to mention cost and figures, but is not the sole consideration for many agencies.

 

[Leadbutt]

TFW,after reading thru the whole thread, I would say you have vast agreement, after 33 1/2 years now, I can say boy you hit the nail on the head.. We lucked out and went with SIG's, and it was due to the problems the VA.State troopers had with the S&W 10mm's, my boss told us to look into it,we did and tested the S&W 9mm, SIG's and the glock, SIG came out on top and the S&W second, no body liked the glock.

As far as glock goes, look to NYPD and all the problems they have had with them,at one time glock had to keep a crew up them just to repair so called minor problems