LEO Input Needed

[Confederate]

I reckon most people have seen the video of the man who was tasered after he was pulled over by a Utah patrolman. In the old days, the driver probably would have been shot by the officer, but now stupid people tend to have more protection in new technology.

Now here's the issue. My brother was angry at the officer. He said no one should be tasered because of a traffic dispute. I told him, just as angrily, that the idiot didn't obey one thing that the officer told him to do. He may have been passively resisting, I told him, but he was still resisting.

When the officer asked for his license and registration, the driver immediately launched into a debate. True, the officer did some dumb things like standing directly in front of the driver's door and turning his back on the driver. He lost control of the situation rapidly, and when he was dealing with the driver, the passenger, the man's wife, distracted him by getting out of the car and ignoring orders to get back in the car. At any time, either the driver or the passenger could have produced a gun and killed the officer.

Whose fault was it? The officer's, for letting things spin out of control, or the driver and the passenger, both of whom resisted the officer by refusing to follow commands the officer was entitled to issue?

All are free to add an opinion, but please state if you are, or have ever been, an LEO. I think my brother's out to lunch on this issue, but am willing to consider that it might be me.

Thanks!

..

 

[JesseL]

Nt a LEO, but...

In my opinion there is almost no reason why an officer should ever escalate an encounter from non-violent to violent.

If a suspect insists on ignoring lawful orders in a non-violent manner and is not behaving in a way that actually endangers themselves, the officer, or anyone else; the officer should probably just write them as many citations as necessary and let the court sort it out.

This kind of escalation does nothing but harm. It endangers citizens and officers alike, strains public relations, and is politically unsettling to anyone that believes in liberty.

 

[Confederate]

And how is the officer to know that these people were harmless? Let's say you have some rift-raft on the sidewalks of Baltimore or L.A. You tell the guy to take his hands out of his pockets and to put his hands on the back of his head. The guy replies, "Hey, man, I didn't do nothing."

"I said turn around and place your hands on your head!"

"What are you harrassing me for, man? I ain't done nuthin'."

Now the officer is legally able to issue orders and courts have always ruled that they are witnin their rights to supervise the situation in traffic stops and in detention. This guy in Utah was harmless, but again, how did the LEO know that? What if the driver's wife had jumped out of the passenger's side with a gun? Things like that happen all the time in domestic disputes. A cop comes in and tries to protect a woman by detaining or arresting her abusive husband. The situation escalates and suddenly the woman produces a knife and attacks the officers screaming, "Leave my husband alone!" Now they have two violent people to deal with.

It's important that an officer control the situation, and both this guy and his wife were making it mighty difficult.

 

[JesseL]

Without further details in your hypothetical situation, the first thing I would ask is why is the officer engaging the "riff-raff"? The way the situation is written, the officer is harassing the guy and the guy has every right to be a little indignant.

In the video, what could possibly justify even having someone get out of the car for not signing a ticket? Let alone arresting or tasing him? I don't think physically detaining anyone is necessary unless they are physically dangerous or a flight risk. Which was this guy?

The officer provoked a physical confrontation over the driver not signing a ticket. Despit being legal, that is just mind bogglingly stupid.

 

[saboteur]

In our dept., if someone refuses to sign a ticket it constitutes failure to promise to appear...and they must be taken before a magistrate (i.e. arrested).

 

[Riss]

Well I have not seen the entire 10 minute video so I cannot say that I would absolutely do the same if I had pulled the vehicle over. BUT. IF the driver refuses to identify himself, refuses to produce his vehicle identification AND I am not confident that I can identify him properly so he appears in court he gets handcuffed. At that point of refusal and non compliance I can only "assume" that he is not the owner, will not appear and POSSIBLY that the vehicle is stolen. He then goes in handcuffs to appear before the local Magistrate to have a hearing on the ticket. He can then identify himself or sit in jail until he does, or pays the ticket and identifies himself. Not signing a ticket in some states is a Misdemeanor in itself. Me having no idea who he is and his refusal to identify himself means I can force the issue and take him before a Judge. Do not pass go, and do not collect $200.

 

[Autolycus]

This is definately in the wrong forum.

 

[Autolycus]

Either way the officer was wrong to escalate the situation in my opinion. He went straight to the taser without even asking the guy to back off. I suspect that this thread will be locked very soon.

So with that said... IBTL.

 

[wcwhitey]

Taser and Pepper Spray are "less than lethal" alternatives to a firearm. A nightstick or billy are bone breakers but are less than lethal. Other than the firearm the officer only has his fists. Not everyone is Chuck Norris and can force someone to comply with a stern look. The taser looks bad on video but if that officer used it in order to keep a situation from escalating and nobody got hurt that is a good day in law enforcement. It is soooooo easy to just do what the cop says, if you don't, that is resistance. Why everyone thinks that a cop has to wait until things turn bad to act is beyond me. "Reasonable force to affect an arrest" is the universal rule. Something that gets compliance without sending someone to the hospital, without permanent injury, just a bruised ego, sounds like reasonable to me.


P.S. Legally speaking a summons is "in lieu of arrest". That means that an officer is under no legal obligation of offer a driver a written appearance for a traffic violation. The department policy may be to write a ticket, but the law states that you can arrest someone for the violation. By writing a ticket the driver is actually getting a break. Also, legally speaking, when you are pulled over you are technically "under arrest". An arrest is a forced detention or custodial detention. You are not free to leave until the officer gives you permission to do so, you try to leave that is resisting arrest. Same applies to failing to stop in the first place.

 

[trueblue1776]

sounds like reasonable to me

I'm pretty sure the SOP of every department in the country would disagree with you. I'm not sure why the officer asked him out of his car just to taser him. Oh well, there's a maroon on just about every department, this one probably just cost his dept. a mill or two.

 

[AtticusThraxx]

Cop could probably have handled it better. But I bet the next time this idiot gets pulled over, he does what he's told. Getting Tasered looks extremely painful.

 

[curmudgeon and anarchist]

I'm sure glad I don't have to do the job they do: one man patrols stopping people in the middle of nowhere and never knowing what they're going to do. What I'm wondering is why the guy getting the ticket got out of his car. Isn't he supposed to stay in the car for the duration of the stop? If he'd been told to stay in the car and he didn't, I suppose the trooper could feel threatened and tasing would be justified.

 

[Rainman76]

Ok posting a phone number that might be his is irresponsible,(person on You tube did that) so two wrongs make a right? lets not monday night quarterback this and let the justice system play itself out.

Now maybe you haven't read the news lately but Law Enforcement are considered fair game for criminals He is Heading back to his car, for what?

Sounds like in Utah it is a Misdemenor for not signing a ticket... so he was under arrest and he moved away. That is resisting arrest, passively yes, but still resisting arrest. Next everyone is crying about his rights. The only time your rights are required to be read is when you are 1) detained (which he was) and 2) being questioning about a crime.

The trooper wasn't questioning him about a crime so Miranda had no place at that traffic stop.

Was the Trooper excessive, maybe but I say no because that driver was out of line. The Officer doesn't know if the man is going to turn violent go for a weapon (has NOT been frisked). If he has a beef with the ticket take it to court, that is the way the justice system works not go on a tirade and argue with the officer and then tell the officer what he(the officer) is going to do.

The man said we are going to go find the sign first, no you need to sign the ticket said the trooper , no. In states with a required signing you have just commited a misdemenor.

If you want to see what happens when an unknown person walks back to thier vehicle watch a video about georgia deputy who was shot to death or the any officer that let a suspect walk back to his/her car and then have taken weapons against the trooper/officer.

It is important that people understand that others have drawn guns, knives, and lord knows what else on police so now we are damn thinking about those things. If people have problems with it go tell all those non law abiding citizens to obey the law, and take it to court, not lose your temper like a child.

 

[CrawdaddyJim]

Unreal, Mr. Motorist using his limited legal knowledge decides to try and lawyer up on the Officer. Officer sighs and then proceeds to tell Mr. Motorist all the wrong things in the wrong way. Mr. Motorist knowing he is right and the officer is wrong proceeds to up the anti by refusing to sign the ticket. Officer then proceeds to tell Mr. Motorist to exit the vehicle and upon egress informs him of intent to arrest. Mr. Motorist then asks Officer "What is wrong with you?" ZZZZZZaaaaaaaappppp!

While Mr. Motorist is floppin around screaming. Mrs. yes Mrs. Motorist decides to exit the vehicle. She is hot by the way, not sure why she is with a idiot. Sorry I digress. She comes around the rear of the vehicle behind Officer. Now I was fully expecting him to shoot her. He didn't. He yells at her to get back in the car.
She argues with him. Something about it is her right. He continues to yell at her to get in the car. Why didn't she call 911?

Officer is going to get a piece of paper in his file and Mr. Motorist is going to be enjoying his soreness for a few days and will probably get off with out a fine. Even tho he was going 68 in a 40 mph construction zone.



After the word Officer please insert Fife.

 

[sacp81170a]

Yep, once the guy refused to obey the officer's reasonable orders, he was resisting and subject to arrest. The officer could have used OC, his baton, H2H control techniques, etc. Resisting is resisting. Did the officer use good judgement? Without knowing his departmental SOP's on the use of force, I can't say. But then, neither can any of the other "roadside lawyers" on this thread. I predict this one will devolve into the usual cop bashing and be locked very soon. 'Bye now.

(68 in a 40 is reckless driving around here and is an arrestable offense.)

 

[gbran]

If at the end of the day, this officer, just let the guy go because he refused to sign the ticket, then everybody could refuse to sign tickets and be let go.

If the officer let him go and then this turned into a warrant issued by a court, then some other officers at a later time would still have to confront the guy.

 

[Brick]

I believe he is justified in using the taser in that instance.

He didn't pull him out of the door then tazer. Told him 3 times to turn around. No cooroperation = taser. H2H stuff? never know what could happen there.

EDIT: don't like the ticket? cool. sign it, debate it in court. if it's only a infraction ticket, skip the hearing (unless they drop it or reduce it quite far) and go right to court.

 

[doc2rn]

In my state refusing to sign is your right and not mandatory or a misdemeanor. The officer would have escallated a peaceful resistance to one of violence and would have cost the state about 3.1 Mill. I think that is what was paid the last time this happened. In my state the officer under request to see the sign would have been obliged to walk or drive the man back to it. There upon proving his case, defusing doubt, and through video making documentation of reason. Unfortunately this is not a perfect world and yes I was a LEO in the service. Too many kids that got picked on in HS pick this profession to get back at their tormentors. What we need is a little more civility, mutual respect, and co-operation and a little less Barney Fife.

 

[JesseL]

If at the end of the day, this officer, just let the guy go because he refused to sign the ticket, then everybody could refuse to sign tickets and be let go.

AFAIK, in Utah that's okay. The officer can write "Refused To Sign" on the ticket and call it good. The guy still has to pay the ticket. Everybody wins.

 

[wcwhitey]

Trueblue it is called LAW "ENFORCEMENT" for a reason. The enforcement part is not always pretty, modern video has ensured that we get to see all. Force begins with verbal commands, if that don't work it gets physical. There are occasions where a word is not spoken because the force continuum is already midway through. I tend to speak in generalities about these issues because I have learned a long time ago not to Monday morning quarterback. I have been in that officers situation 100's of times, never turned out the same twice for better or worse. Look at it this way, if he would just let the guy go and hold court on the roadside we would all be criticizing his tactics and questioning his bravery and calling for his job because we are not getting our tax dollars worth. I realize some people just do not like cops and distrust the government that they represent. It's one of those jobs that sometimes you just cannot win at. Going home in one piece is usually good enough for me.

 

[workingstiff]

Let's try to have our LEO Departments, throughout the country, adapt to a new paradigm. We have brand new technology now folks, which is why we're seeing these recordings.

Assume I'm not reaching in my pockets and mumbling,

If you pull me over, and you have my license plate number (know who I am) or have my drivers license in your hand, (know who I am) or you have me on dash cam (know who I am) where is the great harm in me refusing to sign your ticket? (summons?) You know who I am.

You can't find me tomorrow? You have to tase me now, so I convulse on the ground and slober fall in to the back of your squad to ensure that I've compled with every command from the peoples police? When did this start?

Sorry I didn't follow up on that mailing because I thought other folks were protecting my rights. Where is that NRA renewal?

 

[Jeff F]

I saw the whole video and it looked to me like the guy in the speeding car was behind the trooper and the trooper pulled over to the right to let the guy pass then jumped in behind him and red lighted him. If you look at that video it looks like the trooper pulls to the right and almost comes to a stop right in front of that 40 mile an hour sign, the speeder probably did or could not see the sign. Should the speeder of obeyed the troopers orders, yes. The side of the road is not the place to argue about a ticket.

 

[CleverNickname]

AFAIK, in Utah that's okay. The officer can write "Refused To Sign" on the ticket and call it good. The guy still has to pay the ticket. Everybody wins.

So if signing the ticket doesn't make any difference legally, why do they bother having people sign?

 

[JesseL]

So if signing the ticket doesn't make any difference legally, why do they bother having people sign?

Good question. I've never heard of anyone having to sign a parking ticket or automatic photo-radar ticket either.

The side of the road is not the place to argue about a ticket.

I agree. But I think that applies to both parties. The officer doesn't have any more to gain by this kind of confrontation than the driver does.

 

[sacp81170a]

One more time, in many jurisdictions, exceeding the posted speed limit by more than 25 miles per hour is reckless driving and you can be arrested for it. The officer may have been trying to give the guy a break by just citing him for speeding. The idiot not only talked himself into getting arrested, he managed to get himself tased into the bargain. Not an intelligent choice by any stretch of the imagination.