Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Mark_Mark, May 28, 2021.
I do not doubt your experience but when we talk accuracy I think it always helps to add context to the statements so we can consider them properly. For me all 1911's should hold a 3" group at 25 yards from a ransom rest. Accurate 1911s shoot 1" groups at 25 yards from the same rest. Extremely accurate 1911's shoot sub 2" groups at 50 yards. In terms of accuracy and 5" 1911s for my money 50 yards is where pistols really distinguish themselves. As I alluded to above most shooters including myself cannot shoot consistently enough to out shoot most 1911s inherent mechanical accuracy at 50 yards. I am simply not that good a shooter. For me at 50 yards I am a minute of man shooter in that I can keep an entire mag on a 2/3 size IDPA Steel target consistently. My groups with my Baer at that range or really any pistol in the safe are more about me than the gun.
When you are shooting offhand under 15 yards the accuracy on paper is more about the Indian than the arrow assuming the gun is not defective and the ammo is decent. So I would as @Dragonfly at what distance were you shooting?
I agree. I've also found, in my hands, high end 1911s don't shoot any better than my lower priced options, like my Dan Wesson. Clearly a me limitation.
But getting past production adds more than simply shooting to a 1911. The quality, the fitted parts, the feel is so hard to quantify but is worth it, in my mind. I don't currently have a Wilson 1911 but every time I shoot my father's (eventhough, frankly, I don't shoot it well. Not used to the POI on Wilson's FO he's got on there, I always group low. I just need it for a few weeks of range trips and dry fire/laser bullets) I just love the feel. My next 1911 will be a Wilson, probably a Carry Comp Professional.
But yeah, it's usually the Indian, not the arrow, until/if your skill reaches the point to really eek that extra bit of precision and accuracy out of a gun.
I went back through my photo library to get these pictures—it was almost seven years ago. I don’t remember the actual ammo used but it would have been some type of factory 230 gr. FMJ. Here are the pictures from the Baer (probably taken at 20m and 15m):
and here are the ones from the SIG Compact Stainless (same, ammo, same distance)
It was my first time out with both pistols. I had been thinking about getting a Baer for about 20 years when I got this one and I was quite downcast about the results. As I mentioned above, I received a message from a member of another gun forum who’d seen the pictures I’d posted and offered to buy it. I don’t think that there was anything wrong with the pistol, and I would not have been surprised if it shot really well with another load, but I did not regret selling it. I owned an early Nighthawk Custom GRP (back when they were somewhat more affordable) and that pistol shot everything accurately without a fuss.
From a rest or off hand? Do you know if the original owner properly broke in the pistol? Ammo will make a difference for some pistols as I am sure you know.
The targets you out up are not bad shooting for 15-20 meters. To be honest the difference in those groups and the low left tell me it was the shooter interfacing with the particular pistol more than the pistol. At aimed slow fire I would have expected both pistols to stay in center of each target.
The way I see it the pistol grouped about the same as the Sig just a different point of impact. Was it a fixed sight Baer or a adjustable. Not to pick on you but this is why sometimes the internet can be misleading. A single range session with unkown ammo was enough for you to proclaim that the Les Baer you had was not accurate. IMHO you didn't really shot it enough to know. YMMV
You work hard and get to a point in your life you would like the finer things that you have read about. No, I can’t run that gun like a Grand Master... but I can pretend to!
aaah, the winless debate of “just as good”
I look at it like this, If your good with a Sig Compact, then you would be great with Custom Les Baer. I think...
Just go full house bespoke custom and call it a day... LOL
Yes, you’re right, I didn’t shoot it enough to find out. But after seeing a $700 pistol shoot as well as a $2000 Baer I wasn’t really interested in undertaking the effort to prove it, especially with an offer to buy the Baer.
Yes I agree when you look at the targets I think it was a matter of familiarity with one gun vs the other. If you put them into rest at 20M I would imagine the groups would be the same.
The lines and looks of a classic cut 1911! LOVE IT !
I do not question your decision. I am just pointing out that the statement in no way should be taken as a representation of the guns accuracy or the accuracy level of Baers in general. That was the point I was attempting to make not that you should not have moved on.
I personally find even for a new gun in the same platform small differences in configuration can lead to slightly different groups. Things like grips, length of the trigger and even the beavertail. It does not show up shooting for speed at under 10 yards but when you stretch it out a bit you see it. I have 12+ Browning HI Powers. Some shoot better in my hands vs others but all of them shoot about the same rested. It is me interfacing with the particular gun which changes "accuracy."
With a massive Stan Chen Gen 2 magwell which is no thicker than the frame. I love it because it does not take away from the lines of the pistol.
very nice!!! is this your gun???
Yes It was built on a Colt 70 Series by Don Wiiliams of the Action Works.
that magwell looks like it hasn’t seen a quick reload before... do you shot it or just look at it?
I have rifles that I just look at, so I understand.
Cool video but in no way is what he is showing the full spectrum of 1911 semi-custom to custom 1911s. He is also wrong about Nighthawk. Their motto is "One Gun One Smith". They have lots of gunsmiths but only one of them works on a particular gun. https://www.nighthawkcustom.com/about-nighthawk
For my money the top end of the 1911 world are people like Ted Yost, Don Williams, John Harrison, Jason Burton, Lou Biondo, Hilton Yam, Stan Chen, CT Chen, Ned Christiansen and the late Jim Garthwaite. They are all a single man shop which has a personal aesthetic that they built to. You find one you like and you work with them to make a pistol which is a functional work of art. IMHO they are a completely different animal then the world of semi-custom guns like Les Baer, Wilson Combat or Nighthawk. They also cost a lot more. LOL
My next project is taking this Colt WWI repro...
And turning it into this with the help of Ted Yost.
The gun is shot. It is not a safe queen. The pistol was finished in Ion Bond. If you look at this pick you can see some whitish lines. They are from mag changes. With Ion Bond wear on the magwell area show up as whitish lines which pretty much disappear with a little oil. It is one of the most durable finishes I have encountered. Only hard chrome wears better. Most of those pics are beauty shots taken when the pistol first came back. This type of gun is a big step up from a Les Baer in terms of personalization and finish. IMHO.
Very nice collection of 1911’s!
I’m just getting into 1911’s, I think it takes time and maturity to really appreciate the 1911. But for now, Les Baer... here I come!
And don't forget Richard Heinie!!
I'm having a bit of a problem with this post. The extractor hole was drilled out oval? And removing "a few burrs" fixed the problem? Please explain how that works. The rear sight was "molded poorly?" That means that the man who fitted the sight didn't notice the defect. Neither did the final assembler who then test fired the gun after assembly. The same goes for the front sight. Finally, Les himself would have missed all this when he gave the gun a final visual inspection. Yes, Les really did look over every gun before it was bagged and shipped. And finally, the checkering was full of crossovers in the lines? I did that checkering so this is kind of personal to me. It did not leave my bench with crossed lines. There certainly aren't any in the picture you posted. Here again the assemblers and Les himself would not miss anything that obvious.
I'll concede the blueing problem. Baer's have that reputation. But your other complaints seem....uh.....well, nevermind.
Separate names with a comma.