Less-lethal shotgun loads and the private citizen

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Telperion

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Less-lethal shotgun loads include things like bean bags, rock salt, rubber shot, OC rounds, and so on. While there is no question that they are not as effective as stopping threats as lead shot and slugs, given the utility of pepper spray for individuals, I'd like to know if these loads have any value to the average individual, namely:

1. Are there reasonable scenarios where a private individual would want to have a ranged, less-lethal force option?
2. What are the legalities of shooting somebody with one of these loads? How does the law look upon a deadly force weapon that is loaded with less-lethal ammunition?

It should go without saying that I hope this board can discuss this topic with a minimum of invective and bravado.
 
well setting yourself up for bad times if you think about it.

if the situation is dire enough that you need to immediately defend yourself from a violent attack with a weapon, why would you use bean bag ammo? Any half awake prosecuting attorney can get you in jail for assualt/attempted murder because "if he did not think the situation warrented a 12 guage slug, then why did he attack the poor defensle upstanding rapist with a bean bag round to the chest?"

Then the other situation: having 5 rounds of burrito mix in your shotgun when you absolutely need a 1 ounce load of lead to deal with a crazed meth addict in your living room at 2 am?
 
§ 16-11-102. Pointing or aiming gun or pistol at another


A person is guilty of a misdemeanor when he intentionally and without legal justification points or aims a gun or pistol at another, whether the gun or pistol is loaded or unloaded.

The above is from the Georgia code. I am not a lawyer nor do I have any training or personal knowledge of how this statute is actually applied in Georgia.

However, I would assume it means that I have no legal justification to point an unloaded firearm at someone unless I had the legal justification to point a loaded firearm at that person. If this is, in fact, the case then it follows that I couldn't use so-called 'less than lethal' rounds unless I was justified in using lethal force in the situation.

It seems to me, that in Georgia, my actions would be judged on the same basis as if I had used a firearm loaded with real ammunition. That being so, I think I'll use real ammunition.

Police have backup...both tactically and legal. I don't.

As far as the pepper spray and such go, I personally would not use such believing it to be 'less than lethal.' There are people out there who appear to be completely healthy who are severely asthmatic. Guess what spraying them with pepper spray is going to do? It will probably send them into the condition known as status asthmaticus which will be rapidly fatal unless the action occurs in a locale with a very efficient EMS close to a hospital.
 
A shotgun is deadly force no matter what it's loaded with. The police use less lethal options in place of lethal force only when they have lethal force immediately available to them. There are several less lethal options I don't use at work because I work alone and backup can be a long way away. The last thing I want is to be standing there looking at an angered suspect who now wants to stab or shoot me because I've hit him in the chest with a beanbag round.

A search should bring up several threads where we've discussed this.

Jeff
 
The last thing I want is to be standing there looking at an angered suspect who now wants to stab or shoot me because I've hit him in the chest with a beanbag round.

Saiga 12 with non-lethal round chambered, 00 right behind it, err underneath it.

Would this be an acceptable use of non-lethal force for a civilian? This would fall in line with stopping rather than killing, and if you did have to shoot twice, you have at least demonstrated that you did not want to kill, but stop. Maybe helps with the civil suit that follows? I don't know if this is a good idea, but it sounds like a good way to avoid killing someone unless you REALLY have to.
 
If I'm going to point a shotgun at someone I want lethal rounds in there, or I wouldn't have pointed it in the first place. Jeff is right - it's like choosing a knife over a gun to fight with but it's still lethal force.
 
Saiga 12 with non-lethal round chambered, 00 right behind it, err underneath it.

What are you going to do if you are confronted with a situation where you need deadly force instantly? Fights happen very fast. At close range you might not have time to press the trigger twice that's if the less lethal round even cycles your Saiga 12.

I think in many police situations and every civilian self defense situation I can imagine that if lethal force is called for, you should use lethal force.

As a private citizen you are under no obligation to respond to deadly force with less lethal force. You're not going to take that person into custody. And if you get into the position of using your shotgun in a situation that doesn't justify the use of deadly force and in the dynamic fight you shoot your attacker in the face with a beanbag or baton round and he dies, then where are you? If you arent justified in using deadly force, you shouldn't have the shotgun out at all.

Less lethal force options have limited utility in police work and I just can't see any use for them in a civilian self defense situation.

Jeff
 
Byron, Jeff White express my views.
Meaning I do not do less lethal with threats or point guns at things I do not intend to destroy.

One exception.
NOT a life threatening situation either.

We simply reload popcorn kernels in shotgun shells for pest control down on the farms, ranches and rural area.
Pigeons for instance in a barn, and needing them to leave.
Now some of the farm equipment can run $100,000 and up right fast, one does not just go blasting at random in , around or near some stuff.
So getting the popcorn kernels to persuade pigeons, or feral cats to leave where not wanted is done.
Heck, often times a primer only hull fired out of a .410 single shot is all it takes...what I/we try first btw.
 
Less lethal is just that - LESS lethal. It still has the potential of being lethal, otherwise they would call it NOT-AT-ALL lethal ammo.

People have been killed or severely maimed by LESS lethal ammo.

Probably not a good idea to use it unless you have the legal backup that a Police Officer is provided.
 
What are you going to do if you are confronted with a situation where you need deadly force instantly? Fights happen very fast. At close range you might not have time to press the trigger twice that's if the less lethal round even cycles your Saiga 12.

Are there cases of non-lethal rounds not even slowing someone down? I guess I shouldn't assume that a beanbag will stop a perp, but slow him down long enough for a second shot? Basically, if I have time to pull the trigger once, I am assuming I hit the target, otherwise I'm screwed anyways. I am curious about the least amount of recovery time for a less lethal blow. If that smallest recovery time is less than the cycle time + firing time, then I'd say it might work. Either way, I do agree that non-lethal is not the way to go for SD. As mentioned previously, what is the point of using less than lethal force when faced with a lethal force situation. The point about the less lethal round possibly not cycling in the Saiga is a very good point as well. In all honesty, that was the only situation that I could think of using less lethal as a civilian.
 
The short answer to your question is "hell no".
Your obligations are much different then those of a LEO. They must confront the unruly dredges of society. You must only confront them when your life is in danger.
Pepper spray has its place, but a firearm in civilian hands should only be used as that last option against a BG.
If you don't have the mindset to use lethal force, reevaluate your defensive plans.
 
I vote for using whatever is available that is most likely to keep BG from killing you. Less then lethal options sound great in theory, but even a 12 gauge is not a guarantee of a one shot stop. If I have to shoot someone, I want to make sure they are no longer a threat to me. You may not get a second shot.
 
Depending on your state laws, it doesn't matter what is loaded into the shotgun- it will still be seen as deadly force. Whether a beanbag, rock salt, or 00 buck, you'd better be justified. If you are in fact in fear for your life, I don't know why you'd want anything less effective than fully lethal rounds.

I am no police officer, but it seems less-lethal rounds are used for things like riot control- where full-up lethal means are overkill. It does not seem that they use less lethal tools (aforementioned shotgun rounds, tasers) when there is a clear and present danger to their lives. In those cases, they'll be using their duty weapons.
 
I've asked the same thing before. From a Christian point of view, I would rather knock someone down with a load of rubber buckshot (which would hopefully then convince them to run away) than kill them.
But if you are justified in shooting, then you are justified in killing. It really is a no win situation. So since you have to lose either way, I would rather have my loved ones and myself live through it.
So for me, its Federal low recoil #4 buck backed up by full power Federal 00 Buck, backed up by the hope (and prayer) that I'll never have to use it.
 
as I understand it, legally as a civillian less lethal shotgun rounds are still considered lethal force. That means that if you can use one legally against an attacker, you can legally use lethal force. And if you can legally use lethal force, you probably are in a position where you NEED to use lethal force.

bean bag rounds, and OC rounds and all of that seem like novelty ammo to me.
 
Here's another way to look at this: it is 2:00AM and a stranger just burst into your bedroom. You hit him in the belly with a bean bag round and he falls facedown on the floor with both hands obscured. What do you do next?

Don't forget that one needs to be trained in the proper application of less-lethal munitions and tactics. LEOs who deploy less lethal rounds usually have armed back-up with them, do you?

As a civvie, if you ever need to shoot to stop in order to prevent a direct threat to yourself or loved ones, whether the BG survives this confrontation is not relevant at the moment.
 
Or look at it this way,

If someone is chasing you with a shotgun you know to be loaded with rock salt, would you respond in kind with a 'less' lethal weapon? (I wouldn't.) A gun pointed at me is a gun, I am not required to discern what is in the chamber from that point of view. I am not required to take a load of salt and hope that it doesn't hit me in the eye or the temple.

The only force is deadly force. This is the same answer to a thread I just ignored about pulling your gun if you are being beat up. Deadly force is the only force in which the results are absolute, therefore the rules for its implementation are absolute. No escalation of force, no matching the threat, it is simply, if you think you might die, you may act in kind to prevent it. Anything else is dabbling in grey area which may or may not save your life, and may or may not get you in trouble.

This is the conditioning I set myself to when I started carrying. If I am looking at a threat, taking a broken tooth or a black eye, but there is no way I could reasonably expect more force than that, I take it and walk away. If it is any more force than that, I am in reasonable fear of my life and I will respond with deadly force. No fighting, no mace, no threatening, no incapacitating, no negotiating, no persuading.

"Less" lethal loads exist for the same reasons as stun guns and verbal judo. To pacify bleeding hearts who think the police need an alternative to starting off with a bullet. They are not intended to be effective. They are not intended to save lives. They are intended to give the police chief points for the press when explaining why his officers have killed yet another member of any given minority. "We didn't START with deadly force. We TRIED to stop him other weapons. when these proved ineffective, it was necessary to kill the suspect."
 
Less Lethal has it's Own Legal Issues

Many of the issues brought up in this lawsuit wouldn't apply to a homeowner who shot an intruder with a bean bag round, but everyone who thinks it's a good idea should read this and see how a court viewed the use of less lethal munitions:
http://patc.com/weeklyarticles/beanbags.shtml
Beanbag Rounds
Deorle v. Rutherford and the County of Butte, No. 99-17188 (9th Cir. 2001)

By Jack Ryan


Another area being carved out through lawsuits is the use of less-lethal weapons. Although the widespread use of beanbag rounds is fairly new to policing, cases contemplating the propriety of their use have been popping up in the media and in the courts. The common theme with less-lethal weapons as with all uses of force is reasonableness. Was it reasonable to use the force employed in the circumstances faced by the officer?

In Deorle v. Rutherford and the County of Butte, the court considered the use of a beanbag projectile on an emotionally disturbed person. On September 9th 1996 Richard Deorle was diagnosed with Hepatitis C. After consuming vodka and taking his prescribed medication Richard’s behavior became erratic. Believing her husband was suicidal, Mrs. Deorle called 911 for help. Officer Mahon responded but Richard would not allow him in the house without a warrant. Richard remained passive and did not hinder Officer Mahon from removing Mrs. Deorle and the children from the house to a safe location. Officer Mahon called for backup and “at least 13 officers responded.” “These officers set up roadblocks on the streets around the house to ensure that Deorle had no avenue of escape, and awaited the arrival of a Special Incident Response Team (“SIRT”) and a team of negotiators.”

Deorle, though verbally abusive, was physically compliant and generally followed all the officers’ instructions. When a canine team “tested” his behavior by making their police dog bark aggressively at Deorle, he retreated towards his house.” “When a wooden board from the porch railings came away in his hands, Deorle dropped it at the officers’ command. Although shouting ‘kill me’ and brandishing a hatchet at a police officer, he threw the hatchet away into a clump of trees when told to put it down.” “Officer Rutherford, who was at the scene for thirty or forty minutes, did not observe Deorle touch, let alone attack, anyone; nor had he received any report of such action on Deorle’s part. He did, however, hear Deorle scream at him that he would ‘kick his ass.’”

Officer Rutherford, a member of the SIRT team moved in before the arrival of the negotiators. He observed Deorle walking with a plastic crossbow in one hand and a bottle or can of lighter fluid in the other. Deorle began taunting Officer Rutherford, at which point Rutherford ordered Deorle to drop the crossbow. Deorle dropped the bow and began walking toward Rutherford. Rutherford did not order Deorle to drop the bottle or can. As Deorle steadily approached Rutherford; Rutherford “took a little wider stance with my feet to get a good stable base.” When Deorle reached a “predetermined” point, Rutherford fired at Deorle with a beanbag round striking him square in the face. Rutherford indicated that he had been aiming for his ribcage. Deorle suffered severe injuries as a result of being shot in the face with the beanbag round. He subsequently filed a lawsuit against Officer Rutherford and the County of Butte, California.

In analyzing the use of beanbag rounds the court noted that such rounds are considered a “long range impact weapon.” Although considered a less-lethal force option, Officer Rutherford acknowledged in his testimony that such rounds could be lethal at thirty feet, the distance he was from Deorle when he fired, and further acknowledged that such rounds may be lethal at fifty feet if it were to strike the head or the left side of a person’s chest. These rounds are “calculated to stop people who are violent or hostile and are threatening injury or death to themselves or others.”

In reviewing uses of force a court will “measure the government interests at stake by evaluating a range of factors: they include: (1) the severity of the crime at issue, (2) whether the suspect posed an immediate threat to the safety of the officers or others...(3) whether he was actively resisting arrest or attempting to evade arrest by flight and (4) any other exigent circumstances that existed at the time of the arrest.” The court, citing Graham v. Connor asserted: “These factors, however, are simply a means by which to determine objectively the amount of force that is necessary in a particular situation.” In other words, one determines if the force was reasonable by reviewing the factors announced in Graham.

Applying the facts of this case to these standards the court recognized that the officers were at Deorle’s property without a warrant in an effort to investigate Deorle’s peculiar behavior. The officers knew that Deorle was suffering an emotional disturbance and was suicidal. Officer Rutherford, whose stated purpose in moving closer to gather intelligence that would enhance the SIRT team’s response decided to hold his ground on Deorle’s approach notwithstanding the fact that negotiators were on the way and Deorle had no avenue of escape. Officer Rutherford fired on Deorle without ever ordering Deorle to halt his advance even though Deorle had complied with several commands given by officers including Rutherford. The court concluded that “shooting a person who is making a disturbance because he walks in the direction of a police officer at a steady gait with a can or bottle in his hand is clearly not objectively reasonable.” The amount of force used by Rutherford was excessive when analyzed against the existing facts and when weighed against the government interest. Notwithstanding the fact that the court could point to no similar case considering this issue, Officer Rutherford was denied qualified immunity on the reasoning that the force used here was obviously excessive.

Note that the court found the officer at fault for standing his ground. This might not be an issue in one's home except in a few states.

Jeff
 
Forget less-lethal loads, they're useless for personal defense. I want something deadly, something that'll speak with authority, something that'll teach the bad guy, if he lives that is, to stay the hell away from me and my house and family.
 
Physics:
Are there cases of non-lethal rounds not even slowing someone down?

If they're on drugs, heavily clothed or maybe really, really pissed.
Frankly I don't expect a straight-edged, level headed person in a bathing suit to be kicking in my door at butt o'clock in the AM. I guess it could happen.

Please note (as we flog a patch of tall grass fertilized by the remains of the dead horse we were beating) in Jeff's post that the officer acknowledged the rounds could be lethal at 30 feet, and with a good hit, even at 50. It's 13 feet across my living room, maybe 25 from one outer wall to the other - the longest distance in my house. Maybe some of you guys live in mansions, but..:rolleyes:
 
Less lethal force options have limited utility in police work and I just can't see any use for them in a civilian self defense situation.

Are you including OC spray in this statement? Or do you just mean "less lethal" munitions fired from firearms?
 
Are you including OC spray in this statement? Or do you just mean "less lethal" munitions fired from firearms?

I'm referring to less lethal shotgun loads which is the subject of this thread. I have used OC many times and think it's a good solution to many problems.

Jeff
 
Thanks, that's what I *thought* you meant, but I just wanted to make sure. (My mind reading skills aren't as good as they used to be...)
 
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