Let's Make a Company: Semi-custom Hi-Powers

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The HiPower is dying. Face it.
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Fine.
Send me the "bodies" for proper disposal.

BTW, atblis... do you even own...or have ever even fired, a High Power? Have you even ever held one, for that matter?

Oh, and ugaarguy... "The big thing I'd like is a more 1911 like safety, which could easily be done up as a drop in part."... Cylinder & Slide makes a semi-drop in safety... I have one in my own Hi-Power... that is much more "1911-like" than the stock HP one...
It took maybe 45 minutes to install, and with a little extra work on the "divots" in the HP frame, absolutely "clicks" into either position. No mushiness at all.
Well worth the money spent on it.



J.C.
 
As the owner/shooter of both the Hi-Power (mine is tweaked just a touch) and the CZ75B, I offer the following for your consideration: Both are fine examples of the designer's art. The Hi-Power is not archaic, it is a CLASSIC.
The CZ75 by contrast is a modern evolution as to what the Hi-Power MAY have become. The CZ75/85 are the traditional double-action/single-action versions of the venerable Hi-Power. They are opposite sides of the same coin, full-size 9m/m service pistols.
 
I prefer a BHP over a CZ but admit it guys the CZ has been building up quite a following, and is cheaper. But I do not care for the CZ's beavertail, because it bites my hand. I would rather bob a BHP hammer than mess with a CZ.


Guys the discussion is about a better BHP, many folks say that a CZ is an improved BHP. I personally would rather have a plain jane P-35 Belgian made pre-war.

Remember if you are going to bash anything, bash some inanimate object.
 
So far the thread has pretty much fallen in line with the original poster's topic and is interesting to some, not to others, and so forth.

There has been one post that the author even states is " a little trollish."

He is correct and it needs to stop if he wishes to remain a member here.

If he prefers another pistol, as many do, no problem, but there is no need for even a "little trolling" here.

I own both makes of pistols being discussed and more than one example of each and fully agree that both are very good guns after using them for several years.

It would seem reasonable to think that any auto could be discussed without anyone feeling the need to troll...even "a little."

Those feeling the need to go ahead and troll, feel free to do so, but understand that all actions have consequences and in this case the consequence will be permanent banning from this site.

A "little trolling" leads to more trolling and people responding in trollish fashion.
 
CZ Hi-Power?

Yep. Since CZ can put out their guns at those prices, why not a Hi-Power? They could market it under the Dan Wesson name, a JMB cousin to the DW 1911s. CZ, build me a Hi-Power to CZ-75 standards in the same price range with a few tweaks and I will buy it.
 
I think it would be possible to re-introduce the Hi-Power. Only problem is that tooling and startup costs would be astronomical. If you could do what Springfield Armory originally did and have the parts produced outside the country (by FEG for instance) and do the final fit and finish inside by a few expert gunsmiths who truly know how to do it, it think it could work. FEG made a nice true Hi-Power copy but some of the details left something to be desired. QC/QA of such a new company would have to be absolute second to none. One or two bad ones slip through and the news spreads like wildfire.

I love the idea of seeing Hi-Powers produced again. Haven't been able to find any around here for a while. I'd like one of the new FN produced guns or a Browning Practical. I feel the market would be somewhat limited for these guns, but a quality product will catch on with a devoted following. Same price or a little more than the FN or Browning guns? Sure, I'd buy one. Maybe two.

I did pick up an FM-95 Detective that's great (kind of a mix between a Hi-Power frame and a 1911 slide). It has the mag safety, but, strangely, the mag drops free with no effort and the trigger is pretty decent.
 
I'm in, when do we start production? I'll do the live fire testings.
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That's the spirit!

Using the enhancements outlined in my initial post, I propose the following product line:

Frame sizes - standard, standard compact (a la FM Detective), heavy (for .40 S&W and above), heavy compact

Calibers - 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, 10mm, .45ACP

Finishes - matte black (or other colors?), polished blued, hard chrome, stainless, and sometimes polished satin nickel or bi-tone finishes

Grips - plastic, several wood, and navidrex options

Now it could work out that the cost of maintaining such a diverse line was astronomical, but then again there's a lot of parts commonality. Less popular finishes like nickel or other matte colors might have to be produced and released only in very small batches. It might be a good idea to standardize slide cuts for Novak- or Heine-type sights. We should also consider a .22lr conversion kit to compete directly with CZ, as it won't be long until their prices climb higher to find the market's threshold.

The Hi-Power and the 1911 might be old designs, but they both offer something that few other modern full-size firearms provide: a full-size pistol that's comfortable for the majority of human hands. Large American men are NOT the only tool-using humans roaming the planet, and building guns that fit a greater percentage of people (including large American men) broadens our potential consumer base and can proliferate firearms that much further. Most of us will jump at the chance to buy our wives, girlfriends, or daughters a gun that's powerful, fun, and easy to shoot, while remaining easy to wield and carry.
 
Mr. Williams and Mr. Camp: Both your comments and...um...suggestions ;)... are duly noted. At least by me.
I for one have no real desire to brawl with trolls... Even little ones.

However, I'm always interested in why a person prefers one item over another, and what, if any, advantages they see in the item of their preference.
In the case of the two pistols mentioned, one is a bit larger, heavier, and more complex than the other. Both have at least one feature that is slightly more difficult to improve/alter than the average semi-auto pistol. ( Improving the trigger on either weapon takes more than a bit of know-how. The CZ's "camming" of the hammer in single-action, and the HP's trigger reset are not things that just any idiot can change... or at least cannot change for the better. ) One of them also doesn't fit my hand as well as the other, due to the increase in grip size, or the shape/cross section of the grip. These things are the sort that cause me to choose one over the other. It has little to do with the age of the design, or any "following" one or the other may or may not have.

However, since I'll probably not get an answer regarding any of those differences, I'll return to the subject of the thread.

So... getting back to a "semi-custom" or "enhanced" production HP.... We've already mentioned the safety.... anything "not mushy" is certainly to be desired. It wouldn't take anything truly custom to remedy this, only a slight change in the shape of the indentions and the plunger that engages them.

Somebody already mentioned making a stainless HP... I think a lot of people would probably go for this idea. I also think that an alloy frame would probably sell pretty well. Especially in a "Detective" sized gun.

There's also the matter of the trigger reset that I mentioned earlier... I'm not sure what kind of changes in geometry would give a shorter reset, or if those changes would be practical. Or, if they're even enough of an issue to even bother with. I certainly don't notice the reset when I shoot, so someone else will have to comment on this particular issue.

Well? Anything else folks would like to see done to a HP to "improve" it?


J.C.
 
I recently bought a Hi-Power .40 cal. I've only fired 3 boxes of shells through it. So far it has fed and fired 100 percent, and it feels good in the hand. The muzzle flip is a little on the high side, but maybe I'll get used to it.

As others mentioned though, the trigger pull flat out stinks. I know there are smiths out there that can lighten the trigger as well as shorten the reset. The reset shortening mod is hell for expensive, from what I understand about $250. For those that have had this done, is the price worth it?
 
I have never been bitten by any of my Hi Powers.

I would like to see another company offering cutom and semi-custom Hi Powers. There are already some pretty good ones doing it such as Novak and Cylinder & Slide. I would take another one!

Here is a Novak offering:

bhp031106l1528.jpg



CZ 75? Not even close. It's a SA/DA pistol, not the traditional SA of the Hi Power. Totally different workings. Not a bad gun at all but sure isn't on the same footing as a Hi Power. (Yea, they make a SA CZ75 but nobody buys it.)
 
The bad thing about semi-custom hi-powers is that there is really no market.

Let's face it...the hi-power is mostly, these days, the gun of afficianados. That's why they're getting more and more rare as new guns here in the US. They just don't appeal to a large following (large as a business would need, anyway) like a 1911 or Glock. They don't really have a niche that isn't filled BETTER for most people by another handgun.

A friend and I have talked for several years about doing precisely what you're talking about with semi-custom hi-powers. He's even reverse-engineered complete sets of CAD drawings (we couldn't get our hands on originals) that could be transfered to CNC machines and has worked out a couple of innovations for an improved trigger system. The problem? The market. You have to be able to make money doing it and the hi-power-loving demographic that will spend upward of $1,000+ on a semi-custom hi-power just isn't there. There are plenty of people who would (I would and I HAVE spent that much and more on custom hi-powers) but not enough to justify the business.

It's like the death of P7's. They are great handguns (fantastic, actually) but H&K just wasn't making enough on them (or were losing money) to keep them going.

At least one company other than FN/Browning made a higher-end hi-power variant but it never took off. Now you see stainless steel Baford Arms hi-powers on rare occasion for sale but they don't really bring any special amount.

I don't think that anyone else's hi-powers made much of an inroad, either. Springfield Armory had someone make a few prototypes for them and they never took off, either. THOSE hi-powers go for quite a bit but aren't really anything special in terms of manufacture. If they weren't so expensive, it would be neat to have a hi-power with a Springfield Armory logo on it, though.
 
If they weren't so expensive, it would be neat to have a hi-power with a Springfield Armory logo on it, though.
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Agreed. I can see a $400.00 Hi Power with a Springfield logo selling very well. The key is price and placement. The CDNN FN Hi Powers sold like hot cakes but it was to those of us who knew what kind of deal they were getting. If they were put in Academy, Sports Authority and Cabela's for example, and offered for $399.00, I imagine the market would widen drastically. But you're right, sitting alone in gun shops priced from $600.00 to $749.00 with a ton of less expensive guns around them, they aren't going to fly out the door. In my neck of the woods, the CZ's sit in gun shops and don't sell, but they move at the larger chains. If they had the Springfield name attached they would move even better.

Don't bring up Charles Daly, no one knows them and those that do don't want a Daly. ;)

(No offense to Daly owners meant.)
 
Finishes - matte black (or other colors?),
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It's getting almost obligatory to do a dark earth or OD green colored polycoat finish with full length dust cover and tac rail on it, judging by the stuff Kimber, SA, Sig, etc., have in their product line these days or have coming out soon.

Definitely not the pistol for BHP purists, but I would not be surprised if it caught on with those who like everything solidly tactical and such.

Personally, I'd take one on the off chance I ever buy a gun light, as well as a polished blued steel model.
 
i would really like to see a .45 ACP hi power. if they can make a .40 why not a .45?
 
I think the Hi-Power design has enough recognition and reputation that you could be successful with it if you could create a high-capacity version, offer it in several different popular calibers, and (here's the hard part) make it cost-competitve with Glocks, XD's, CZ's, etc.

Unfortunately, I think in order to get down into the $450-$550 price range, you're going to need significant existing manufacturing capacity, which means a big firm - and most of the big firms have other irons in the fire.

It does sound like a project that would be right up SA's alley though. If they could find an eastern Euro or Asian company to make them and just stamp the SA logo on top, I think they could do fairly well.
 
Springfield Armory tried that a few years back witha CZ75 clone called the P9, and its compact version the P9C. If I recollect correctly, the parts were from Tanfoglio of Italy, and were assembled here in the United States. It seems the pistol was ahead of its time, or wasn't marketed aggressively enough, because it was dropped from the lineup in the early-mid 1990's. The build quality on the pistols is exceptional (I have a couple of examples in my collection).

I think that Cylinder and Slide have an exceptional variant of the Hi-Power in the Adventurer model (short slide, full capacity, tuned action....NICE). I have heard of problems with the FM Detective upper, mainly parts breaking, and without factory/importer/distributor support I tend to steer clear.

I feel that the Hi-Power ergonomics (with the Spegel grips) are without equal, but the CZ75/85 is a very close second (particularly with Hogue semi-checkered grips). Just my opinion, for what it's worth.
 
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My BHP (MKII) is a pistol I bought just out of curiosity, due mainly to high praises I read here and in other gun forums.
At first, I wasn't really impressed. Miniscule sights, the trigger has some creep and reset is a bit long compared to my 1911. Inspite of these traits, it did shoot very acurately. Then, I read about its durability issues (slide failures and horrible customer service) and had doubts again if I should keep it. More than once, I thought of selling or trading it, but each time I take her to the range, and see how she shoots, I always have a change of heart. Needless to say, she is now a mainstay in my small collection.

As far as mods, I recommend a little more beavertail, better sights, hardchrome and/or parkerized finish (I do like the all business parkerized apearance) and a better trigger out of the box.
And, oh, how about reintroducing the target model BHP?
 
I think the Hi-Power design has enough recognition and reputation that you could be successful with it if you could create a high-capacity version
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What is it now? Low capacity? I know it doesn't hold as much as a G17 or something but 13+1 (or 15+1) seems fine with me.

It does sound like a project that would be right up SA's alley though. If they could find an eastern Euro or Asian company to make them and just stamp the SA logo on top, I think they could do fairly well.
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SA already did that with hi-powers (not just the P9) and there wasn't even enough interest for them to go beyond the prototype stage, unfortunately.

I read about its durability issues (slide failures and horrible customer service)
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I guess I missed this. What durability issues are you talking about? What horrible customer service? Are you referring to the Mark III slides and the cracks at the area where the paddle on the sear lever goes into the slide? If so, I would hesitate to call a few hi-powers out of many thousands (or tens of thousands) a "durability issue".

As far as customer service? Never needed it on a hi-power so I couldn't say.
 
I think if you want to create a large potential market for the HiPower, you need to get the gun writers and editors behind it.
Look at the 1911, some guys even make a hobby out of buying at least one from every manufacturer. Why is that? Look at all the fantastic write-ups these guns get. See if the gun rag industry will go a month without two articles touting the 1911 and every little feature as being the epitome of gun design.
You get that kind of coverage (and in some of those articles you can see the writers just searching for something new to say) and the market will be there.
 
Why try to re-invent the wheel?

C&S, Novak and Yost all make high end HP's.

FEG, by anyone's estimation made a super hot affordable clone for under $200, add the Houge grips and the Ashly sights and a CD rollmark and inflation it's a $400 pistol.

Same thing happened to Croatia's HS2000 with a Springfield Logo to get the XD. The price doubled.

Who cares what the "logo" is on the most popular fighting nine in the world?

Inglis, FN, Browning, FM, FEG, etc etc etc... if you can still buy frames and slides from FN or FEG the aftermarket parts are all around.

The HP has at least 30 more years under its belt. Don't count it out yet.

The patent has likely expired... but a comapny with the resources, say like Taurus could crank them out for a reasonable price.
 
The patent has likely expired... but a comapny with the resources, say like Taurus could crank them out for a reasonable price.
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Exactly sir, thats why I think a Czech made version from CZ would be perfect. Looking at what they can put the CZ-75 out at price wise I think after the tooling is paid off they could do the same with a Hi-Power. CZ-USA's ownership of Dan Wesson even gives them an "American" name to sell it under like FN does with the Browning marked guns. Cosmetically nicer FEGs or FMs with a better importer, or Taurus, CZ, IMI, etc making a new enhanced stock Hi-Power would work. The design is very good and it just needs a company to really get behind it and make it happen.
 
If CZ made a Hi-Power they'd likely buy their frames and slides from FEG, just like Mauser did for the sa-80. It's a short drive from factory to factory and inside the EU there are fewer tariffs/taxes. It would make no sense for CZ to tool up for that, when 100 miles away is a factory and tooling making this stuff already and exporting it all over the world. Would the CZ name help sell it? You bet. But the basic design is pretty darn good.

Even now an FN is cheaper than a Browning (which is made in Belgium and assembled in Portugal if I recall correctly)

Taurus apparently has the tooling for rapid prototyping. And as a company they likely stand alone for being able to do it quickly. (The thunderbolt rifle for example) Note also that Argentina and Brazil are trading partners and likely could have FM make their slides and frames. (FM is only now being imported by a small importer. Sarco sells them cheap ($300) now.) Nafta probably helps them keep costs down too.

The main improvements you can make to the BHP are:

Longer frame: extended 'beavertail' or other solution for those of us with larger hands. (Some say bobbing the hammer sloves this but not in my experience)

Frame rails (everybody wants frame rails.. don't know how we went 70+ years without them) but to compete with other mfg's maybe you'd want them? Make a frame with rails, or a flat spot to mount them as an add-on. Maybe the one with rails is a full length dust cover like the 1911 or the FM detective. But then you'd have to alter the slide too, which FM already did, and all the mil-spec parts still fit.

The others are stuff like:

Better sights. Three dots, night sights, Ashleys, whatever.

Extended controls/ambidextrous controls. C&S makes great ones.

No magazine disconnector/factory trigger job. (This is probably NOT going to happen in lawsuit-happy CA compliant new designs but we can dream.)

Most 'improvements' on the BHP design are in the controls, not the basic shape.

Things like checkered front straps and matte tops on the slides are finish options.

Maybe the BUL option and make a (gasp) Polymer lower? You could increase capacity and mold in rails and serrations galore.

PS as far as increasing capacity, Ramline made a flush fit 15 shot mag that works great without any alterations.
 
CZ

The CZ75 is an easier pistol to manufacturer. It is arguably an improved/simplified BHP. That's part of the reason they are more affordable.

The heritage and classy lines keep it alive, but it is a dated design. Very few young people go out and even consider a Hipower. Unless something changes soon, its days are numbered.

Custom/SemiCustom 75s would be a better market.
 
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