Gun Slinger
member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2007
- Messages
- 777
1911Tuner,
It was more of a rhetorical question.
GS
Let's talk about .22LR for defence
- Thread starter Newton
- Start date
- Status
1911Tuner,
It was more of a rhetorical question.
GS
woad_yurt
Member
moooose102:
.22LR needs all of the penetration it can get if one is going to use it against a human. I'd rather have a deeply buried solid point than a shallowly placed hollow point. Rounds with more power can afford to slow up a bit in the body.
.22LR needs all of the penetration it can get if one is going to use it against a human. I'd rather have a deeply buried solid point than a shallowly placed hollow point. Rounds with more power can afford to slow up a bit in the body.
PointOneSeven
Member
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2006
- Messages
- 169
Concealability, that's why I'd carry (and do carry) a .22. But some of those .32's are pretty small packages! I use gameshoks, minimags or velocitors.
In a longer barrel, I'd consider using stingers, let the increased velocity do something with the lighter hollowpoint.
In a longer barrel, I'd consider using stingers, let the increased velocity do something with the lighter hollowpoint.
CJ
Member
Got to agree with wheelgunslinger:
I always thought a very high cap .22 with a very short, crisp trigger would make an interested choice. In my high school days when I might have given Extreme Shock ammo a second though, the vision was for a compact full auto .22 with a large magazine...seems like it would be similar to getting hit with a shotgun.
I always thought a very high cap .22 with a very short, crisp trigger would make an interested choice. In my high school days when I might have given Extreme Shock ammo a second though, the vision was for a compact full auto .22 with a large magazine...seems like it would be similar to getting hit with a shotgun.
-terry
Member
I think lots of the shootings with .22 have been with "unloaded" 22's.
ReadyontheRight
Member
.22? Better than a knife or baseball bat for self-defense.
Easy to shoot, easy to carry, easy to carry a lot of ammo. A great caliber for bugging-out or survival, but there are certainly better choices specifically for self-defense.
Still not a bad option if it's all you've got.
Easy to shoot, easy to carry, easy to carry a lot of ammo. A great caliber for bugging-out or survival, but there are certainly better choices specifically for self-defense.
Still not a bad option if it's all you've got.
sm
member
1911Tuner,
Old Slabside's of yours is loaded I know, watch my six will ya? *puh-leeze*
Folks,
I do not know how many of you realize how many Physically Limited persons are members of THR and other gun forums.
Realize how many that are not, still lurk on THR and other forums.
I do for one, or should say I keep learning of more and more- as I have been contacted by such persons.
THR Staff, has assisted in these persons getting in contact with me.
NO Recoil orders by Doctors, Surgeons and Physical Therapist's occurs every day, just as it has always.
I was born in the mid 50's, and grew up with Veterans of War, Polio Victims, and Elderly with Osteo Arthritis.
All my life, Veterans from War, such as Vietnam and other Conflicts including the Conflicts going on now.
Hi round shooters in Trap and Skeet, detached retinas. Retinas get detached from car wrecks and other accidents.
Accidents occur, and neck, shoulder, back detached retinas happen.
Chemotherapy for Cancer patients weakens them, their immune system is down, and they can get hurt easy.
Risk for Falls is not just for old folks, anyone of any age can be susceptible to injury, and if they are injured, sick and recovering, their system can get hurt worse falling again.
One of our own members, with real combat experience, and more hours of training than one can imagine, was restricted to a .22 for defensive use.
Force on Force training and he busted his back,
Two back surgeries.
He knows as well as anyone, a .22 is not the best choice.
Still he himself was under NO RECOIL orders.
He assists with physically limited folks. Some have Osteo so bad, stepping down too hard will break a foot.
My Aunt did just that before she died, with Osteo so bad.
One of the ladies I know is that bad off, and her home guns are Marlin 60s.
This member with the surgeries does the same as I. These folks get the Doc's and PTs approval, to shoot .22.
These folks will shoot a golf ball every time, and a tennis ball on a bad day.
First Do no harm. Medical Folks take this oath.
I take this oath, I am not going to harm someone.
I earn their trust, and they know I am going to keep them safe.
Other folks that work with physically limited do the same.
I had one young lady, detached retina, shoulder and knee surgery.
NO Recoil orders.
She recovered, and can shoot shotguns and other guns well now.
It took time to get to that point as she was only able to use a .22.
Marine is back from the Conflict, busted up and is under NO Recoil orders.
Young, handsome , stropping ,young man. I mean 6'2 or 6'3" solid as granite.
NO Recoil, and he finally got to where he could use a .22.
Time passes and he can use a .410 shotgun.
He does not push it, he is recovering , still he does not want to be paralyzed or have to have surgery again - or any of that.
He is not the only Military Person, male or female, that is under NO Recoil restrictions.
I get ticked, I really really do.
I grew up with all I did and was Mentored by these fine Mentors and Elders.
These folks sacrificed for Freedom.
Folks like them continued to sacrifice for Freedom.
Polio victims, those physically limited do to car wrecks, work accidents and whatever else , Mentored Physically Limited Folks and whole folks like me...
These still do.
I really do not want folks getting hurt, sick, injured, having surgeries, I really don't.
Some folks know not of what they speak, and if they ever get down, and hear NO RECOIL orders, well...this Armchair BS is not going to be of much comfort, or help.
Yes there are better choices than a .22.
The reality is, NO gun in any caliber is a magic talisman.
Folks really should not put all their security into physical things, be close minded and not be receptive, or even be compassionate to those that are physically limited.
In the blink of an eye, anyone of use could be limited, either temporary or permanent.
Part of why I am ticked is, some physically limited members, and lurkers are being talked down to, not made to feel welcome here as they do not see understanding, compassion, open-minds.
They have a right to keep private, I respect this.
Still they are not made to feel a part of our community so they contact me
and others off public postings.
I really wish these folks would share more...
I am real appreciative of all the things these folks have passed to me, all my life.
No tool is any better than the user of a tool.
It would blow some minds around here, as to how some of these Physically Limited can shoot a .22...
Other guns too, and some are not the kewl gotta haves everyone says either.
Still a .22...
Beware the person that shoots one gun - they know how to shoot the damn thing.
Discuss the .22.
Do NOT attack anyone using one.
That crosses a personal line with me.
You don't know if that person is a Military Person, or anyone else Physically Limited.
Steve
Old Slabside's of yours is loaded I know, watch my six will ya? *puh-leeze*
Folks,
I do not know how many of you realize how many Physically Limited persons are members of THR and other gun forums.
Realize how many that are not, still lurk on THR and other forums.
I do for one, or should say I keep learning of more and more- as I have been contacted by such persons.
THR Staff, has assisted in these persons getting in contact with me.
NO Recoil orders by Doctors, Surgeons and Physical Therapist's occurs every day, just as it has always.
I was born in the mid 50's, and grew up with Veterans of War, Polio Victims, and Elderly with Osteo Arthritis.
All my life, Veterans from War, such as Vietnam and other Conflicts including the Conflicts going on now.
Hi round shooters in Trap and Skeet, detached retinas. Retinas get detached from car wrecks and other accidents.
Accidents occur, and neck, shoulder, back detached retinas happen.
Chemotherapy for Cancer patients weakens them, their immune system is down, and they can get hurt easy.
Risk for Falls is not just for old folks, anyone of any age can be susceptible to injury, and if they are injured, sick and recovering, their system can get hurt worse falling again.
One of our own members, with real combat experience, and more hours of training than one can imagine, was restricted to a .22 for defensive use.
Force on Force training and he busted his back,
Two back surgeries.
He knows as well as anyone, a .22 is not the best choice.
Still he himself was under NO RECOIL orders.
He assists with physically limited folks. Some have Osteo so bad, stepping down too hard will break a foot.
My Aunt did just that before she died, with Osteo so bad.
One of the ladies I know is that bad off, and her home guns are Marlin 60s.
This member with the surgeries does the same as I. These folks get the Doc's and PTs approval, to shoot .22.
These folks will shoot a golf ball every time, and a tennis ball on a bad day.
First Do no harm. Medical Folks take this oath.
I take this oath, I am not going to harm someone.
I earn their trust, and they know I am going to keep them safe.
Other folks that work with physically limited do the same.
I had one young lady, detached retina, shoulder and knee surgery.
NO Recoil orders.
She recovered, and can shoot shotguns and other guns well now.
It took time to get to that point as she was only able to use a .22.
Marine is back from the Conflict, busted up and is under NO Recoil orders.
Young, handsome , stropping ,young man. I mean 6'2 or 6'3" solid as granite.
NO Recoil, and he finally got to where he could use a .22.
Time passes and he can use a .410 shotgun.
He does not push it, he is recovering , still he does not want to be paralyzed or have to have surgery again - or any of that.
He is not the only Military Person, male or female, that is under NO Recoil restrictions.
I get ticked, I really really do.
I grew up with all I did and was Mentored by these fine Mentors and Elders.
These folks sacrificed for Freedom.
Folks like them continued to sacrifice for Freedom.
Polio victims, those physically limited do to car wrecks, work accidents and whatever else , Mentored Physically Limited Folks and whole folks like me...
These still do.
I really do not want folks getting hurt, sick, injured, having surgeries, I really don't.
Some folks know not of what they speak, and if they ever get down, and hear NO RECOIL orders, well...this Armchair BS is not going to be of much comfort, or help.
Yes there are better choices than a .22.
The reality is, NO gun in any caliber is a magic talisman.
Folks really should not put all their security into physical things, be close minded and not be receptive, or even be compassionate to those that are physically limited.
In the blink of an eye, anyone of use could be limited, either temporary or permanent.
Part of why I am ticked is, some physically limited members, and lurkers are being talked down to, not made to feel welcome here as they do not see understanding, compassion, open-minds.
They have a right to keep private, I respect this.
Still they are not made to feel a part of our community so they contact me
and others off public postings.
I really wish these folks would share more...
I am real appreciative of all the things these folks have passed to me, all my life.
No tool is any better than the user of a tool.
It would blow some minds around here, as to how some of these Physically Limited can shoot a .22...
Other guns too, and some are not the kewl gotta haves everyone says either.
Still a .22...
Beware the person that shoots one gun - they know how to shoot the damn thing.
Discuss the .22.
Do NOT attack anyone using one.
That crosses a personal line with me.
You don't know if that person is a Military Person, or anyone else Physically Limited.
Steve
lvcat2004
Member
Can you make your post any more wordy?? I don't think we are talking about disabled people shooting 22's, and although it may be relevant in rare occasions, it deviates much too far from the heart of the discussion and find your long-winded post somewhat annoying.
I personally woudn't BUY a 22LR for a defensive purpose as many have said. While it may be true that it may cause fatal damages eventually, when you are shooting for self-defense, the cardinal rule is that you shoot to kill, not to maim. If that's the only gun you own, and the only gun you can afford, by all means use it, since it's better than a knife or a fist.
I used to carry a 9mm subcompact, but I found myself not carrying it all the time due to bulkiness and weight, and as many said, it's better to have a small caliber with you than to have a 45ACP in your gun safe. So now I carry a Kel-tec 380, which is very compact, perhaps as compact as 22 semi-autos. I encourage you to look into some 32ACP's or 380's that have significantly more stopping power than a 22LR, yet small enough to carry. If you can carry a big 45 or 9mm without problem, then I would say that would be a better option--I just coudn't do it.
I personally woudn't BUY a 22LR for a defensive purpose as many have said. While it may be true that it may cause fatal damages eventually, when you are shooting for self-defense, the cardinal rule is that you shoot to kill, not to maim. If that's the only gun you own, and the only gun you can afford, by all means use it, since it's better than a knife or a fist.
I used to carry a 9mm subcompact, but I found myself not carrying it all the time due to bulkiness and weight, and as many said, it's better to have a small caliber with you than to have a 45ACP in your gun safe. So now I carry a Kel-tec 380, which is very compact, perhaps as compact as 22 semi-autos. I encourage you to look into some 32ACP's or 380's that have significantly more stopping power than a 22LR, yet small enough to carry. If you can carry a big 45 or 9mm without problem, then I would say that would be a better option--I just coudn't do it.
OU_Gryphon
Member
lvcat,
I think what SM was talking about is the reflexive response of many caliber snobs who just can't wait to jump in with "the .22 sux for SD". The original question was essentially what is the best 22lr ammo for defense, not "what is the best round for defense." Very few people have answered that question because they are too busy saying the 22 is a bad SD round - something the original poster acknowledged right at the very beginning.
Oh, and by the way, the purpose of shooting in self-defense is to stop the attack, not to kill or even to "knock down" the attacker. While not the best choice for any of these purposes, the 22 can stop an attack. The heart of this discussion is what ammo in a 22 does this best.
As to the orginal question, I've always heard that 22 hollow points aren't moving fast enough out of a pistol to expand reliably anyway. I can't back that up with links, but that is what I've heard anecdotally. In any case, it seems like deeper penetration would trump expansion in a 22, so I would give the advantage to a heavy round nose bullet.
I think what SM was talking about is the reflexive response of many caliber snobs who just can't wait to jump in with "the .22 sux for SD". The original question was essentially what is the best 22lr ammo for defense, not "what is the best round for defense." Very few people have answered that question because they are too busy saying the 22 is a bad SD round - something the original poster acknowledged right at the very beginning.
Oh, and by the way, the purpose of shooting in self-defense is to stop the attack, not to kill or even to "knock down" the attacker. While not the best choice for any of these purposes, the 22 can stop an attack. The heart of this discussion is what ammo in a 22 does this best.
As to the orginal question, I've always heard that 22 hollow points aren't moving fast enough out of a pistol to expand reliably anyway. I can't back that up with links, but that is what I've heard anecdotally. In any case, it seems like deeper penetration would trump expansion in a 22, so I would give the advantage to a heavy round nose bullet.
lvcat2004
Member
Ok, you are correct that the OP was about the ammunition, and not too much about 22LR's ability to stop people. I would agree that penetration would be important in feeble caliber, so in such instance, I have heard many people using calibers such as 25ACP or 32 usingt FMJ for self defense as opposed to HP's. I just haven't seen a lot of data on 22LR in self defense because probably it's not meant to be.
I completely disagree with you on "stopping" and not killing for self defense. If you are in immediate danger of your life or serious injurty as a result of an assault, I would not hesitate to shoot and kill, and there will be only one side of the story, and the assailant will not be disabled, and will not be able to sue me or retaliate--it's fundamental. "It's not to kill or even to knock down the attacker"??? I don't know what planet you are from. Perhaps you are talking about military/police or somethign completely different, but as far civilian self-defense goes, avoid drawing your weapon at all cost in the first place, but if you do, you better be prepared to shoot and kill, not merely stopping, knocking down, or maiming--that would be the wrong thing to do. If you are in no need to fatally wound your assailant, then you shouldn't be drawing your weapon in the first place.
I completely disagree with you on "stopping" and not killing for self defense. If you are in immediate danger of your life or serious injurty as a result of an assault, I would not hesitate to shoot and kill, and there will be only one side of the story, and the assailant will not be disabled, and will not be able to sue me or retaliate--it's fundamental. "It's not to kill or even to knock down the attacker"??? I don't know what planet you are from. Perhaps you are talking about military/police or somethign completely different, but as far civilian self-defense goes, avoid drawing your weapon at all cost in the first place, but if you do, you better be prepared to shoot and kill, not merely stopping, knocking down, or maiming--that would be the wrong thing to do. If you are in no need to fatally wound your assailant, then you shouldn't be drawing your weapon in the first place.
OU_Gryphon
Member
I'm from the planet earth - specifically the USA. In the USA there are a lot of jurisdictions (even Texas, for instance) where intending to kill your attacker can be interpretted as 2nd degree murder. That is not to say that you shouldn't shoot to kill, but the purpose (at least legally speaking) is to stop the attack, not to rid the streets of another scumbag. It is a fine distinction, but an important one. Tactically, though, I agree that if you are going to pull your gun, you should be shooting to kill because that is the best and only safe, reliable way to stop the attack.
Edit: I just re-read your original post, and I realized I misread what you had typed regarding shooting to kill. My mistake. Carry on.
Edit: I just re-read your original post, and I realized I misread what you had typed regarding shooting to kill. My mistake. Carry on.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
lvcat:
That's Steve's style. I suggest reading his posts. Lot of wisdom and humor contained in most of'em. We like him, anyway. If you find his posts annoying...skip over them. Personal attacks are not acceptable here. I suggest that you re-read the rules that you agreed to before you get that toe any farther across the line.
Actually, that's part of why many people opt for a smaller caliber pistol to start with. Arthritis...Carpal Tunnel...things like that afflict many people, and firing even a mildly recoiling handgun causes a lot of discomfort and keeps them from practicing to any reasonable degree. A .22 gives them the ability to have something besides a sharp stick and a prayer. Remember that these 2-legged predators often select the old and the infirm as targets.
Just recently, we had an elderly couple murdered on a hiking trail in the Western Carolina mountains. By the time they were found, the scavengers had reduced them to skeletons. A little .22 revolver dropped into a coat pocket might have provided a different ending to that sad story.
That's Steve's style. I suggest reading his posts. Lot of wisdom and humor contained in most of'em. We like him, anyway. If you find his posts annoying...skip over them. Personal attacks are not acceptable here. I suggest that you re-read the rules that you agreed to before you get that toe any farther across the line.
Actually, that's part of why many people opt for a smaller caliber pistol to start with. Arthritis...Carpal Tunnel...things like that afflict many people, and firing even a mildly recoiling handgun causes a lot of discomfort and keeps them from practicing to any reasonable degree. A .22 gives them the ability to have something besides a sharp stick and a prayer. Remember that these 2-legged predators often select the old and the infirm as targets.
Just recently, we had an elderly couple murdered on a hiking trail in the Western Carolina mountains. By the time they were found, the scavengers had reduced them to skeletons. A little .22 revolver dropped into a coat pocket might have provided a different ending to that sad story.
wheelgunslinger
Member
SM is right. Not everyone is dragging a large caliber weapon that will sunburn you from the muzzle blast and deafen you with the report as it's simultaneously vaporizing the bad guy and ripping a hole in the space/time continuum where his particles disappear forever.
Ideally, I'd like a handgun that shoots African Lions at the bad guy. Talk about ending the conflict...
Some people just can't use anything larger than a 22. And, that's cool.
My own mother is one of those people. She has MS, Fibromyalgia, and a laundry list of other neurological ailments. And, she just went through what seems like her 10th cancer surgery. She's very very weak and unfortunately not able to defend herself with even my Dad's little czechomatic CZ52. So, I bought her a 22 a few years back. And, after sounding like a crazy person talking about home invasions, I've finally and sadly been proven right within the last six months when a home down the street was the target of home invaders. So, now she keeps the 22 around instead of in the safe.
As to what ammo, the Aguila solids sound pretty interesting since the mercurial CCI stingers seem to come apart at the hollowpoint if they hit something hard. (This is purely anecdotal since I have no photos to show you.)
Seems like a solid would penetrate better.
Try them out and see what happens with some phone books and watermelons and such.
Ideally, I'd like a handgun that shoots African Lions at the bad guy. Talk about ending the conflict...
Some people just can't use anything larger than a 22. And, that's cool.
My own mother is one of those people. She has MS, Fibromyalgia, and a laundry list of other neurological ailments. And, she just went through what seems like her 10th cancer surgery. She's very very weak and unfortunately not able to defend herself with even my Dad's little czechomatic CZ52. So, I bought her a 22 a few years back. And, after sounding like a crazy person talking about home invasions, I've finally and sadly been proven right within the last six months when a home down the street was the target of home invaders. So, now she keeps the 22 around instead of in the safe.
As to what ammo, the Aguila solids sound pretty interesting since the mercurial CCI stingers seem to come apart at the hollowpoint if they hit something hard. (This is purely anecdotal since I have no photos to show you.)
Seems like a solid would penetrate better.
Try them out and see what happens with some phone books and watermelons and such.
I would always prefer something larger, but if my MKII or 10/22 was what I had in hand when "Vigoro Strikes Mixmaster"....well 'run whatcha brung' And as Steve {sm} pointed out, there are some folks that for various reasons CANNOT use anything larger.
But I do keep the .22Mag cylinder in my Single-Six....loaded up with Gold Dot bullet. IIRC, it is CCI brand. I only saw that stuff on the shelf once at my local Gander Mountain, and I bought all 6 boxes they had. Haven't seen anymore in the last 2 years.
Wha????? Using a Single-Action Revolver in .22Rimfire??? Yep...Run Whatcha Brung
Now CCI calls that ammo the "Maxi-Mag TNT", #0063 based on the Gold Dot bullet techology. CCI claims 1600FPS muzzle velocity from a 6" handgun. Would be somewhat less than that from my 4-5/8" Single-Six, but would still put a hurtin' on what was hit.
But I do keep the .22Mag cylinder in my Single-Six....loaded up with Gold Dot bullet. IIRC, it is CCI brand. I only saw that stuff on the shelf once at my local Gander Mountain, and I bought all 6 boxes they had. Haven't seen anymore in the last 2 years.
Wha????? Using a Single-Action Revolver in .22Rimfire??? Yep...Run Whatcha Brung
Now CCI calls that ammo the "Maxi-Mag TNT", #0063 based on the Gold Dot bullet techology. CCI claims 1600FPS muzzle velocity from a 6" handgun. Would be somewhat less than that from my 4-5/8" Single-Six, but would still put a hurtin' on what was hit.
Last edited:
OU_Gryphon
Member
IIRC, the original question was about 22lr, although obviously a 22 mag would be a major step up in power and recoil vs. the 22 lr. I always thought the little NAA mini-revolvers in 22 mag would be a good weapon of last resort. I don't care who you are, a 22 mag in the face is going to ruin your day real quick. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can get real jacketed bullets in 22 mag instead of the plated bullets so common in 22lr. Seems like that would help keep the bullet together whether you are using FMJ or JHP.
Hokkmike
Member
Poor choice.
sm
member
Ammo choice.
1. Standard Pressure , 40 gr, LRN.
I prefer lead, no copper plating.
Winchester T-22 is a old example, there are others by other mfgs.
I prefer Fiocchi, with CCI being my second choice for my guns.
My guns like this load.
2. Winchester Dynapoints.
If you can find these, these are standard pressure, with a dimple, not really a HP
3. Target grade ammo by Eley, RWS and others.
Your gun will inform you what it liked best.
Shot placement and quick effective hits are what one has to have, with any firearm, in any caliber.
Period.
A gun has to feed, extract feed - repeat.
Magazines are part of the semi auto design.
Guns are mfg to shoot ammunition of certain specifications, and are regulated to shoot point of aim/point of impact (POA/POI)
It does not matter what mfg makes the gun, platform, caliber, if the gun does not feed, extract, feed, repeat, shoot POA/POI , then one is not going to get shot placement in the first place, much less quick effective hits.
I don't care if you have umpteen bazillion rounds of the most hi-tech, most popular round, if these do not work in YOUR gun, you are screwed.
Bulls-eye shooters are a very smart bunch.
Everyone is so damn down on these folks, as they are not "hip, slick, cool and tactical enough".
Youth is wasted on the young...
Standard pressure is the best kept secret in a .22 firearm. Always has been, still is.
Reliability is a big factor, many hyper velocity shells, such as Stingers are NOT recommended for some guns.
One the OAL is different, and second the wear and tear on action and the dwell time is affected.
Bigger and faster is NOT always better.
Fast bullets often times start out fast and slow down fast and trajectory is off, and varies in a wider "window".
Part of that is do to dwell time.
That wear on a semi, will change how the round is chambered.
Match shooters will use a "gauge" to measure every .22 round to get all the ones the same to use for a string.
.22 ammo , like any ammo, will behave different. So having the same specs every time, increases reliable feeding into the chamber the same and the dwell time being the same.
Art & Science...Brister was correct, and he knew this applied to not only Shotguns.
i.e Beretta 21 A in .22 lr.
I have never had a problem with this gun. Never!
Neither has others I know. Some are Undercover Cops, Body Guards and the like.
I/we know why folks have a problem with these and 98% of the time, it is NOT the gun.
Beretta knows how to make small tip up guns, it is rare for me and mine to have seen a faulty Jetfire, Bobcat, Minx and others.
These small guns, have to be respected - even in revolvers.
There is not a lot of room for levers, and all to move, one reason one cannot get a action job on these as they can a bigger gun.
Hi-Velocity.
Prefer LRN.
CCI Mini Mags, Winchester X22lr, and Win Power point.
In the old days, we did not have CCI here. PowerPoint had not even been invented yet.
X22LR, ran in every damn gun we shot it through, even Jennings and Ravens.
It might not be the most accurate, often times it was!
Federal made a similar load, forget the name, and since ATK has them now, not looked to see if still in the line.
That load did the same thing.
Fiocchi had one ( maybe still does) and that was one nice load.
Remington, w-a-y back when had a good load, I used it.
Remington does not make their .22 ammo and for us, about mid 70's Rem loads were avoided like the Plague.
Recently...Remington or whomever is doing their .22 ammo, is doing a really nice job.
The Standard and Hi-Velocity are really running guns and shooting accurate!
Now I really hate light loads and the heavy loads. 60 gr SSS don't do ...
Most 34, 36 gr won't...Except, the Old Federal Bulk packs.
These are old, 40,000 rds were bought at one time and these are the ones I and mine are using ...getting low.
That 36 gr HP, hi-vel, has baffled us in being reliable, and accurate.
One old boy has a old High Standard he shoots for Bulls-Eye and his gun likes this load better than Eley and other expensive Target loads.
I have run to the aid of another, given them a Marlin 60, a box of T-22s and knew the gun would work, even if I had not shot the thing.
LRN and in Standard pressure will work.
I have seen the Autopsies, and been in on the Organ Harvests.
My (one of) old Beretta 21A's is stoked with Fiochhi standard pressure LRN, an and is used by a UC LEO lady /Bodyguard type.
H&R 999 I had, is stoked with some 20+year old Win X22LR.
Fella has this gun...
Marlin 60s , one is using a new Remington Target load of 40 gr LRN, it has yet to fail and this gun likes it. It likes Dynapoints real well, and what it was loaded with forever, just we wanted to try these and were surprised.
NAA Mini, we only do the 1 1/8" barrel. We only use standard pressure 40 gr LRN.
Some of these are worn around the neck as they have factory lanyards.
If a lady is down, and hands are in places where they should not be, think of where a ladies hands are, and at bad breath distance going for an eye, into mouth or sinus cavity.
We do lessons on this, and the ladies know where sinuses are.
Sinuses are just holes in the skull. Get out your Anatomy book and look these up.
Physically limited folks, knocked down or our of wheelchairs use these guns, and snub nose .22 , 32, and 38spls.
Some of my Mentors were interesting folks. They shared about Cold War, Checkpoints and Restrictions.
Nobody ever made fun of them carrying concealed a Colt Woodsman, or Beretta tip up - in .22
For fun, they shot lit cigarettes, to extinguish the glowing end.
Daylight, low light, no light...they did this.
1. Standard Pressure , 40 gr, LRN.
I prefer lead, no copper plating.
Winchester T-22 is a old example, there are others by other mfgs.
I prefer Fiocchi, with CCI being my second choice for my guns.
My guns like this load.
2. Winchester Dynapoints.
If you can find these, these are standard pressure, with a dimple, not really a HP
3. Target grade ammo by Eley, RWS and others.
Your gun will inform you what it liked best.
Shot placement and quick effective hits are what one has to have, with any firearm, in any caliber.
Period.
A gun has to feed, extract feed - repeat.
Magazines are part of the semi auto design.
Guns are mfg to shoot ammunition of certain specifications, and are regulated to shoot point of aim/point of impact (POA/POI)
It does not matter what mfg makes the gun, platform, caliber, if the gun does not feed, extract, feed, repeat, shoot POA/POI , then one is not going to get shot placement in the first place, much less quick effective hits.
I don't care if you have umpteen bazillion rounds of the most hi-tech, most popular round, if these do not work in YOUR gun, you are screwed.
Bulls-eye shooters are a very smart bunch.
Everyone is so damn down on these folks, as they are not "hip, slick, cool and tactical enough".
Youth is wasted on the young...
Standard pressure is the best kept secret in a .22 firearm. Always has been, still is.
Reliability is a big factor, many hyper velocity shells, such as Stingers are NOT recommended for some guns.
One the OAL is different, and second the wear and tear on action and the dwell time is affected.
Bigger and faster is NOT always better.
Fast bullets often times start out fast and slow down fast and trajectory is off, and varies in a wider "window".
Part of that is do to dwell time.
That wear on a semi, will change how the round is chambered.
Match shooters will use a "gauge" to measure every .22 round to get all the ones the same to use for a string.
.22 ammo , like any ammo, will behave different. So having the same specs every time, increases reliable feeding into the chamber the same and the dwell time being the same.
Art & Science...Brister was correct, and he knew this applied to not only Shotguns.
i.e Beretta 21 A in .22 lr.
I have never had a problem with this gun. Never!
Neither has others I know. Some are Undercover Cops, Body Guards and the like.
I/we know why folks have a problem with these and 98% of the time, it is NOT the gun.
Beretta knows how to make small tip up guns, it is rare for me and mine to have seen a faulty Jetfire, Bobcat, Minx and others.
These small guns, have to be respected - even in revolvers.
There is not a lot of room for levers, and all to move, one reason one cannot get a action job on these as they can a bigger gun.
Hi-Velocity.
Prefer LRN.
CCI Mini Mags, Winchester X22lr, and Win Power point.
In the old days, we did not have CCI here. PowerPoint had not even been invented yet.
X22LR, ran in every damn gun we shot it through, even Jennings and Ravens.
It might not be the most accurate, often times it was!
Federal made a similar load, forget the name, and since ATK has them now, not looked to see if still in the line.
That load did the same thing.
Fiocchi had one ( maybe still does) and that was one nice load.
Remington, w-a-y back when had a good load, I used it.
Remington does not make their .22 ammo and for us, about mid 70's Rem loads were avoided like the Plague.
Recently...Remington or whomever is doing their .22 ammo, is doing a really nice job.
The Standard and Hi-Velocity are really running guns and shooting accurate!
Now I really hate light loads and the heavy loads. 60 gr SSS don't do ...
Most 34, 36 gr won't...Except, the Old Federal Bulk packs.
These are old, 40,000 rds were bought at one time and these are the ones I and mine are using ...getting low.
That 36 gr HP, hi-vel, has baffled us in being reliable, and accurate.
One old boy has a old High Standard he shoots for Bulls-Eye and his gun likes this load better than Eley and other expensive Target loads.
I have run to the aid of another, given them a Marlin 60, a box of T-22s and knew the gun would work, even if I had not shot the thing.
LRN and in Standard pressure will work.
I have seen the Autopsies, and been in on the Organ Harvests.
My (one of) old Beretta 21A's is stoked with Fiochhi standard pressure LRN, an and is used by a UC LEO lady /Bodyguard type.
H&R 999 I had, is stoked with some 20+year old Win X22LR.
Fella has this gun...
Marlin 60s , one is using a new Remington Target load of 40 gr LRN, it has yet to fail and this gun likes it. It likes Dynapoints real well, and what it was loaded with forever, just we wanted to try these and were surprised.
NAA Mini, we only do the 1 1/8" barrel. We only use standard pressure 40 gr LRN.
Some of these are worn around the neck as they have factory lanyards.
If a lady is down, and hands are in places where they should not be, think of where a ladies hands are, and at bad breath distance going for an eye, into mouth or sinus cavity.
We do lessons on this, and the ladies know where sinuses are.
Sinuses are just holes in the skull. Get out your Anatomy book and look these up.
Physically limited folks, knocked down or our of wheelchairs use these guns, and snub nose .22 , 32, and 38spls.
Some of my Mentors were interesting folks. They shared about Cold War, Checkpoints and Restrictions.
Nobody ever made fun of them carrying concealed a Colt Woodsman, or Beretta tip up - in .22
For fun, they shot lit cigarettes, to extinguish the glowing end.
Daylight, low light, no light...they did this.
41magsnub
Member
As has been said before, if somebody broke into my house I'd rather have one of my shotguns or any of my centerfire pistols but if all I had was my 10/22 25 rds of CCI stinger would definitely ruin somebodies day. I've tested this, at 50' (the farthest LOS in my house) I can put every round in a rotten cantelope with the 10/22 while tired and shaky immediately at the end of a run.
Gun Slinger
member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2007
- Messages
- 777
Been thinking about it over night.
If absolutely "stuck" with no other alternative (my 9mm is not accessible to me for some unforeseen reason), my preference would be to load up the Stainless Ruger MK II with CCI Mini Mag 40 grain solids and plan on expending the entire magazine, hoping the desired results occur.
GS
If absolutely "stuck" with no other alternative (my 9mm is not accessible to me for some unforeseen reason), my preference would be to load up the Stainless Ruger MK II with CCI Mini Mag 40 grain solids and plan on expending the entire magazine, hoping the desired results occur.
GS
lvcat2004
Member
Thanks for the suggestion, but as you mentioned, if that's his style to deviate from the topic in a long-winded way, I'd prefer to skip them. We have done enough deviation from the topic I feel bad for the OP, and spending 3/4 of a page in something that was not directly related to OP question (type of ammunition) was felt to be inappropriate, whether you agree or not, and I would consider gross deviation from the OP against forum rules (which you should know)so let's stick to type of ammunition, shall we?
I have had a few 22LR guns and tried many 22LR loads, but I find them to be finicky at best, occasionally unreliable--one of the reasons I wouldn't choose 22LR for self defense where reliability is not optional. Therefore, rather than looking into penetration and such, I would use the most reliable 22LR loads for the gun that you are using. For most of my guns, CCI mini-mags seem to do well, but that's just my firearms.
When you have a few options of very reliable loads, then you have options to decide on HP/FMJ....and really...I just haven't encountered what I consider reliable data.....
This "anonymous" author of this well-read article
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VG1.htmlrecommends CCI Stinger 37gr. or Remington Yellow Jackets 33gr. becuase they are both reliable in his guns, and he seems to stress marksmanship and reliablity as the most important...which I agree with 100%, rather than dwelling on details of bullet ballistics in flesh.
I conclude....
having any gun, even 22LR, is better than nothing, especially 45ACP that's in your car or gun safe where you can't have access to.
Any load, whatever bullet weight, or type, that fires reliably is better than something that jams.
Well placed shots are better than ill-placed shots by bigger caliber or "better bullet".
Shoot a bunch, practice for perfect placement, find whatever ammo that is as reliable as you can get in YOUR gun and stick with them.
Tim L
Member
Definitely avoid the Aguila SS or SSS, I've seen too many of them bounce off the cardboard target 7yds away. My .22s all shoot the various Winchester bulk loads well and they (as well as Federal and Remington) are available almost anywhere, Eley and CCI may not be.
Tim
Tim
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Then skip them. All topics wind up deviating a little if they run long enough. Part of the scene. Our job is mainly to keep them from completely jumping the track and heading into points unknown.
Topic:
Let's talk about .22LR for defence
As far as I could tell, the OP asked about the caliber, and thus opened the door for discussion on that line...opinions on the caliber AND ammunition...to see what feedback he got...experiences, references, horror stories, etc.
That's what we've been doing for the most part.
woad_yurt
Member
Why should reliability be an issue? If one used .22 semi-autos for range or fun duty and revolvers for any self-protection, one would be fine, reliability-wise. I have 6 .22LR revolvers: 3 H&R DAs, 2 tiny, ancient US revolver Co 7 shot DAs, and a clunky, cheap-o Regent. Out of thousands of rounds shot among them all, I've had a handful of duds. In an emergency, I think there'd be multiple trigger pulls anyway, which would pass by the dud on to the next, good round. Reliability isn't really an issue with a revolver. Still, I do prefer my other, larger calibers for SD duty. But, if push came to shove, I'd feel good with just a .22. I use them, one in particular, a lot & I shoot very well with that particular gun. Probably better than anything else I have.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Reliability IS the issue with any defensive weapon.
If it's a dud and not a squib that propels the bullet about an inch deep into the barrel and stops. At that point, your only option is to throw it at him and run unless you carry a backup.
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