Lets talk AR-15 Red Dot Sights (Assume I know NOTHING)

Status
Not open for further replies.
StrikeFire83

StrikeFire83

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2005
Messages
1,183
Location
Texas
Okay, so I'm a pistol guy who recently decided to take a step out of his element and buy an EBR (Evil Black Rifle) which turned out to be a Smith & Wesson M&P 15 Sport.

Took it to the range and shot 80 rounds through it on Sunday. Needless to say, the iron sights leave a bit to be desired, and I'm interested in a good quality Red Dot Sight.

What I want to do with it:
1. Good combat accuracy out to 200 yards. I'll mostly be shooting 50 and 100 yards for the time-being. Not really interested in ranges beyond 200.
2. I'll mostly be punching paper. Once I get competent with it, I might shoot the occasional grackle, squirrel, or small deer.
3. The Sight: Ease of use, durability, value. (notice I didn't say cheap)

So I ask my cousin, the recent West Point grad and newly minted Army Ranger, and he recommends "The M-68"

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=971768&cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Optics%20-%20Red%20Dot%2C%20Holo%20%26%20Laser%20Sights-_-PriceCompListing-_-971768

So, I realize this sight costs more than the rifle I just bought, but if its the best, why not get it? Is there a midrange option that does everything this does at a lower price? Share your knowledge!
 
Assuming you know nothing... you did sight the rifle in your first time out with it? I mean, irons are pretty good on the AR if you do it right, even out to your max of 200yds.
 
StrikeFire83 said:
Took it to the range and shot 80 rounds through it on Sunday. Needless to say, the iron sights leave a bit to be desired, and I'm interested in a good quality Red Dot Sight.
Click to expand...
Like what? A2 irons are pretty much perfect other than being overly complex.



StrikeFire83 said:
Is there a midrange option that does everything this does at a lower price? Share your knowledge!
Click to expand...

Yes.
The Aimpoint PRO...unless you need nightvision compatibility.

http://www.botachtactical.com/aipariop.html
 
I just went through the same process. Bought a Sport and didn't want to spend more on optics than I spent on the rifle. I bought a Vortex Strikefire. Seems quite sturdy and sighted in very easily. I zeroed it at 50 yards within about 20 shots and then hit hanging plates at 100 yards with no effort.

You can get the Strikefire for $150 online or the Vortex SPARC for around $200. I've also read good things about the Primary Arms generic red dot sight.
 
you did sight the rifle in your first time out with it? I mean, irons are pretty good on the AR if you do it right
Click to expand...

Until now, my rifle shooting was confined to a Ruger 10/22 in my youth. Since I turned 21 in 2004, its been nothing but pistols. I read the manual, and did my best to "sight in" the irons keeping the rifle on the same position on sandbags and clicking the "up and down wheel" until I wasn't high or low. However, there was a friendly guy shooting what he called "an off the shelf 16 inch Bushmaster" with a red dot sight (I should have asked what brand) and he let me take 5 shots with it on one of my targets. MUCH improved group than with my M&P 15. Quicker acquisition, no need to squint, all around a better experience. Bottom line, if I wanted to shoot with iron sights, I wouldn't be on here asking about red dot sights. :D

Yes.
The Aimpoint PRO...unless you need nightvision compatibility.

http://www.botachtactical.com/aipariop.html
Click to expand...

Many thanks, I have no need for night vision compatibility.
 
StrikeFire, the Aimpoint Comp M4 is the current M68 CCO (Close Combat Optic). The Comp M2, and then the Comp M3 were the previous M68 CCOs. The Comp M4 will run for 8 years (80,000 hours) on a single AA lithium battery left on constantly at setting 7 of 10. In comparison, the M2 will run for one year on a DL1/3N (setting 7 of 10), and the Comp M3 will run for 5 years (again 7 of 10, DL1/3N battery). These are all NVD (night vision device) compatible sights, which are water proof to over 100 feet.

The Comp C3 is an M3 without the NVD settings, and it's water resistant (15 ft depth), rather than deeply submersible. Battery life is the same as the M3, but the price is much lower.

The Comp ML2 & ML3 are the same as the M2 & M3, but without the NVD settings. They run about $50 less than their NVD compatible brothers.

Then there's new Aimpoint PRO (Patrol Rifle Optic). The PRO splits the difference between the M2 and M3 with 3 years of battery life on the same 7 of 10 brightness setting, on the same 1/3N battery. The PRO is NVD compatible, and waterproofed exactly the same as the M2 and M3. In fact, it's supplied with M3 manuals, and just an addendum sticker inside the lid of the box detailing the PRO's features. The PRO comes with Aimpoint's QRP2 flat top mount for the price of an M2 or C3 without a mount ($85 value). Right now Aimpoint only let's LE dealers sell the PRO, but they can sell them to anyone. You'll have to find an LE dealer, or order online. The PRO runs in the low $400s.

Many folks really like the newer Aimpoint Micro T1 and H1. These sights run for 5 years on a CR2032 watch battery. They also have 13 settings vs. the 10 settings on the Comp series sights. The T1 has subdued logos, is NVD compatible, and is submersible. The H1 has the contrasting white Aimpoint logo on black body, no NVD settings, and is water resistant to 15 ft. Both are on the higher end of Aimpoint's pricing, but many folks prize them for their light weight & compact size.

All Aimpoints use a single red dot reticle.

EoTechs are your next best option. They're the only other red dots that rival the Aimpoints for durability / ruggedness. The EoTechs are offered in a variety of reticles, but a circle surrounding a centered dot is the most common. They're offered in a variety of battery types and reticle combinations (typically 2 AAs, 2 CR123s, or 1 CR123). Battery life is measured in hundreds of hours on EoTechs, rather than tens of thousands of hours on the Aimpoints. Some folks like the CR123 powered EoTechs because they use the same batteries as the Surefire, Streamlight, and similar weapon lights.

I didn't care about the NVD compatibility, nor super submersible rating; but did like the battery life, price, and included mount of the Aimpoint PRO. I felt the PRO represented the best value of the true hard use / rugged red dots.

That's what I went with, but hopefully the run down above helps you make an informed decision for your wants.
 
^ Thanks ugaarguy, that's exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Time for bed now, but let the research begin tmrw.
 
StrikeFire83,
I have an M4s on my AR. The "s" has the battery compartment closer to the rail. I bought mine from LaRue with one of their excellent QD mounts ... best deal around. I have nothing bad to say about the M4s. I bought it primarily to use in 2/3-gun matches with the idea that I'll put the Mark 4 1.5-5x back on between matches, but as of now, the M4s is staying put. I'm using LaRue's LT659-NV QD mount for "absolute-cowitness and compatibility with USGI night vision mounts." If you look at the bottom photo, both the TROY BUIS and M4s are zeroed for 50 yards. I may add a 3X magnifier at some point but our matches are not exactly long range. Speed is the name of the game and the Aimpoint is a lot faster than the Mark 4.

pof_m4s.jpg


pof_m4s_2.jpg


pof_m4s_cw_02.jpg
 
I just put a EOTech 512 on my new ar, haven't been to the range with it yet but expect it to be just fine.
 
I second the aimpoint pro. I've had an M2 for years and have been nothing but pleased. I would certainly have bought a pro if they were available back when i bought mine.
 
Looks like Ugaarguy has already laid out great info on the aimpoints and Eotechs.

If you do decide on a cheaper option, I'd echo Fabius' comments above regarding the Vortex Sparc or Strikefire, or the Primary Arms offerings; I wouldn't bother with anything else outside of those.
 
I bought my first red dot in the late '70s, a first Gen Aimpoint with 8 hour battery life and W&E adjustments in the base. I mounted it on a HK91, and the optic cost almost as much as the gun. My first claw mount base ran $90, half the price of either.

I really liked it, gave rapid targeting on moving game, abysmal battery life with difficult to find size "N," and the value wasn't financially justifiable. I say that because red dots are basically an LED flashlight housed in a protective tube shining on a piece of two way glass. They need to be extremely precise in adjustment, durable, and work, but considering the average pair of binoculars does all that with a more complicated mechanism, coordinating two separate focusing assemblies with ground lenses, and for the same or LESS money - as do many 3x9 variable scopes on the market, only the most clueless wouldn't have a major question about it.

It doesn't help to hear that most of the better grade red dots made in China are produced in the same plant that makes parts for Eotechs and Aimpoint. The .Gov does buy the ones made in the USA certified as Berry Compliant, the aftermarket, not so much.

A military grade red dot has features above and beyond what is needed in a civilian hunting gun. The dot cannot be emitted to the front, which means more or special lenses. They have to be inspected testing each and every part according to whatever protocol was contractually agreed on, as opposed to batch testing a sample. Looking at the specifics of the $600 and up issue optics, they still aren't literally bullet proof, the lenses can break, and the electronics will become disabled if shocked violently enough. Light equipment repairmen in that MOS routinely exchange them incountry as repair is basically limited to replacement. In civilian terms, that's Customer Service.

The lower priced optics - under about $125 - that have a good reputation do so based on great Customer Service. No hassles and quick shipping to resolve issues, basically just replacement in kind. Above that, quality improves quickly, and the $250 range are considered reliable to the point of being specified on LEO duty guns. The next jump up are military grade, $500 and up. Regardless of what some might claim, any one of them can fail, just as the highest quality, most expensive sniper scope could fail if it fell off the back of a truck and hit concrete. When they start making them with Gorilla glass lenses, then we might see the end of scopes completely. They'll be so rugged the companies will go out of business. :scrutiny:

Rather than get a raft of fanboy suggestions inappropriate for your use, specify what features you need to have in support of what you want. Some items to consider: Does the base/mount come with it? Most DON'T, that's an extra $75 to $100. What kind of battery type, and battery life? If it uses a hard to find or expensive battery, it darn better have a 5 year life. If not, then AAA will do, and you can use the rechargeables from around the house. Even with 8,000 hours life, thats 330 days constant on - IF the optic doesn't have auto OFF, another feature to consider. Is there a choice of reticles, and does that optic have all of them, or just one only take it or leave it? What is the size of the red dot in MOA, is that accurate enough for the target? Is the optic rated to be water proof? Some aren't, no sense buying something that goes out in a light drizzle just when game step out of the underbrush. Are the adjustments repeatable and return to zero walking around the target? That defines whether the screw threads are really any good - some are so loose and cheap they will take two full turns to move anything. Certainly not 1/4MOA click adjustments.

You get what you pay for, but after a certain point, the law of diminishing returns kicks in - it costs DOUBLE to get a small increment in improvement. With red dots, that's about at the $250 -300 range, where I set my budget maximum. For a hunting gun used mostly one season, it's all I need. I've already got an Aimpoint, and the $250 class of optic sold these days is far better, as it should be.
 
The Comp M4... I'm sure it is nice, but it is mighty pricey for 1x red dot (getting into nice variable scope or ACOG territory). You can get the Comp M3 for several hundred less, and the only "disadvantages" I can find are that you'll have to change the battery roughly every 5 years instead of 8 years, and there aren't quite as many brightness settings, but I've never felt the need for more brightness settings on my M3. I bought my M3 sometime in 2006 I believe; the last time I turned it off was sometime in 07-08ish, and I am still on the original battery.
 
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=713018

I have one of the Mepolite sights similar to the one listed above.. I LOVE IT... it works well in ALL light conditions,Bright sunlight to dang dark. Rugged as heck, holds zero (I'm not kind to work guns) requires no batteries. Mounts are very low profile and lever type quick detach, returns to zero on clean mounts..... very good product... I 1st look at one at the Kimber/Mepolite booth at an NRA convention, there was one there where the lens was smashed... it was still working...

I am in the process of another black gun build (can't have too many ya know) and I bought this sight for it..

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=475090

Trijicon makes some great products, our SWAT guys swear by them, so I picked this one up as it was priced better than the Mepolite.. Mistake..

It requires a separate mounting plate, that has large and long threaded knobs, not very streamlined. that drove the price up another $100. and it puts the finished height about 1/2 inch higher, not where I want to be for proper cheek weld..

This unit also works with out batteries, but has what appears to be a greater margin of error in way of parallax. Came with this screw in cap that threads into the front of it.. more fragile. and there is a rotating bezel on that that governs the amount of light that gets to the glass.. found out that was necessary because it will wash out in bright light, and a quick transition to a dark spot.. where's the dot? Oh yeah, I have to adjust that bezel thing... The sight itself is built tough, but the mounts are too high, it requires the use of a pretty fragile bezel attachment..

With the required added mount, it is now more expensive than the Mepolite... I'm sending it back and swapping it...
 
I would not let battery life in the Eotec be of much more concern than you have in choosing your dvd player based on the battery life of the remote. It is a maintenance item so just change them like that in a smoke detector.
I believe the 512 is my favorite all around sight on any AR that I own, there are some better due to durability, precision, magnification but for good quick hits up close and accuracy out to the 200 yds you specified the 1 moa dot with the variable brightness does a great job.
I don't own any sights with quick release levers so I'm not sure of the various mechanisms but my present opinion is to avoid items that attach expensive items to my gun that are quick release, I carry coins or multi tools that will release most sights quite quickly without the worry of snagging the lever on clothing or brush and losing the sight on the trail.
 
If you want the most rugged sight, get an Aimpoint. It really doesn't matter which one you get, as long as you don't exceed what it's specified to handle in terms of water resistance. I'd only suggest that you get the 2 MOA dot if you want to shoot at fairly small stuff.

Since you're considering the M4, I'll assume that cost isn't an issue. If this is the case, you may also want to consider a T1 or H1. They are much smaller, but serve the same purpose and also have the long battery life that is measured in years. Just don't let the 4 MOA dot spec scare you off. Subjectively, I've found the dot to look more like a 2 MOA dot in use.

I don't want to turn this into an Eotech vs. Aimpoint thread, but the Eotechs have been mentioned, so I'll throw in my two cents. I've killed six of them. They were all the N cell and AA models, but they all died none the less. I also know a few LEOs that use Eotechs. They really like them, but it just amazes me what people can get used to and find normal. Like having to remember to turn it off to conserve battery life and expecting your batteries to be dead when you grab the rifle after having had it stored for a week or two.

What is most unsettling is that some report decent battery life and haven't had problems with the batteries discharging while the unit is off and others report that they have to remove the batteries when storing the rifle so that they don't drain while in storage. What's the deal with this? Is the battery thing and issue that needs to be fixed? At the least, it shows and inconsistency in the product line.

I also found the brightness controls on the Eotech to be a bit awkward. Not as easy or fast as a simple turn of a knob.

To be truthful, I do prefer the reticle of the Eotech to that of the Aimpoint. That large 65 MOA circle in the Eotech does make close up shooting fast, but when I was running red dots, I opted for reliability and battery life. The little MOA dot in the center is pretty small for more precise shooting, but offers no real advantage over the Aimpoints 2 MOA dot.

Personally, I settled on an ACOG TA44S-10. Now I don't have to worry about batteries and I have an etched reticle that is crystal clear and I have my circle/dot configuration.

The TA44 is on the bottom rifle. The mount is an ADM.
DSC_0010.jpg
 
I don't have an Aimpoint so I have no personal experience aside from that of my son who said his had battery life/power issues while he was in Iraq so no powered sight is spared from defect.
I will agree on the points TA made on the Eotech and in my previous post tried to clarify the basis for my preference. I have a number of sights on AR's and for hands down reliability I have no doubts that I would pick the TA31-M4 and the one I have for bumps in the night carries a Trj. Reflex so batteries are never a problem or consideration and wash out in sunlight in HD at close quarters isn't really a problem.
Know what you are looking at because some of the Chicom fakes are pretty good on the face.
Lastly, just a good variable will serve you well for predator/varmint hunting and paper punching.
Very few of my scopes/sights were bought new so I don't pay retail but when you buy quality stuff having it being used makes little difference and a good share of the makers will warranty their product regardless so my advise would be to follow that route and sometimes you will pay less than half the new price.
 
X-Rap, it just goes to show that nothing is immune possible failure. I still think that the odds are more in your favor with an Aimpoint.

X-Rap also makes a good point about used equipment, especially when it comes to something like an Aimpoint. If you get one that works, odds are that it will keep on working. You might want to check out the equipment exchange section at ar15.com

Some guys over there swap optics like underwear or are willing the sell what they have to get the latest and greatest. You should have seen all of the M3s that came up for sale when the T1 was released, and then again when the M4 was released. You might be able to make a heck of a deal on an M2. Still, an LEO friend of mine just got the PRO model. It's a good deal.
 
Tirod said:
Are the adjustments repeatable and return to zero walking around the target? That defines whether the screw threads are really any good - some are so loose and cheap they will take two full turns to move anything. Certainly not 1/4MOA click adjustments.
Click to expand...

I was surprised to discover that the M4 doesn't have 1/4 MOA clicks.

From the M4 "manual" ....

Each click of the Screw Adjustment corresponds to a 16mm movement of the point of impact at 100 meters, (4mm at 25 meters and 32mm at 200 meters or 1/2" at 80 yards).

If my math is correct, the M4 clicks are 0.55 MOA, but that's close enough to be considered as 0.5 MOA clicks for practical purposes.
 
@TonyAngel

I disagree with you about the Eotech, I have a 516 that uses cr123s and it is still on the first set of batteries that came with it and I've had it for over a year now and I use it daily. I don't leave it on though, I wouldn't even do that with an aimpoint(it must be the cheap Scotsman in me) personally I prefer the eotechs reticle to the aimpoints dot. I do agree with you about about the acog ever since i bought my ta31rco I haven't looked back, I also haven't had to worry about batteries and switches in a long time.
 
Ro1911, you are referring to one example of an Eotech. I am referring to many. As I stated, some are not having problems, but some are. If you have a good one, then rock on. I'm glad for you. Still, one example doesn't change what I've found from experience.

If you told me that you have five rifles with Eotechs on them and have had no problems, I might think that things have changed.
 
Primary Arms makes good-quality, lower-cost alternatives to Aimpoint red dots. Please note that PA does not claim to be of military-grade quality (and its owner will point you to Aimpoints if that's your need), but they're suitable for most casual AR shooters.

http://primaryarms.com/
 
TonyAngel, I'm not saying all of them are great either, I'm just saying every time I hear someone say how bad the battery life is I wonder what model they have, when it was made, and whether or not it's a Chinese copy. I'm sure there are good ones and bad ones, but I haven't seen the bad ones.

I think the whole aimpoint vs Eotech argument is pointless because trijicon is better anyway

I would like to find someone who has more than one Eotech and uses all of them, it would make a better sample group.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top