Leupold 2-7x28 Ultralight--Enough Scope?

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Is there anything you can see with a 7X that you can't see with a brighter 4X?

By that logic - is there anything you can see with a 4x, that you can't see brighter with a 2x ?

You were also saying you wanted it to work in low light. Higher magnifications do make the image darker. If you want to shoot something very far away in broad daylight, sure.

But if I want to shoot something very far away, I would get something with more than a 16" barrel on it.

Ever stop to think that perhaps some people just LIKE the extra magnification? If everyone's tastes, wants, and needs were exactly the same, we'd have exactly 1 rifle and 1 scope in the world.

But what the hey. I like to shoot at 100 yards with irons.

In the past I was never a big fan of scopes. They were fun to shoot with at the range, but in the field they were more trouble then worth most of the time. Where I live now, they're much more practical and in some cases almost required.
 
moosehunt said:
No scientific data, 1858, but I have 27 years as a dealer and gunsmith for experience, and I know what I've seen and experienced. I can recall but a single fixed that I had to return for service, but well over a dozen, probably closer to a dozen and a half, variables that I've had to return for service

Fair enough ... but I would add that I'm talking about modern high quality variable power scopes such as Nightforce and Leupold. As much as I respect your 27 years of experience in the business, unless the 18 or so scopes were sent back in the last few years then it's not really relevant to someone trying to make a decision on the current offerings. It would be like me complaining about the reliability of the current Ford F-150 based on my 27 years as a mechanic and the numerous problems the trucks have had over the years. The F-150 like many variable power scopes have gone through numerous iterations to get to where they are today. At the end of the day, you're happy with your fixed power scopes, I'm happy with my variable power scopes so it's all good ... right?

:)
 
Well I pulled the trigger and ordered the 2-7x28 Ultralight. Got the flip up caps to go with it and the low rings from Ruger to swap out the medium rings it came with. Can't wait till it gets here to try it out. I figure, if I don't like it, I'll just put it on another gun (or buy another gun to put it on?!? it's a sickness). I have a feeling it will be perfect though. Thanks for all the advice, I'll post pics sometime after Christmas when I get it all put together.
 
variables have more parts.....

Guys,
Cut Moosehunt some slack....variable scopes, of any brand, have more parts, and significantly more movingparts than fixed power scopes. I have personally had 2 Leupold variables fail, and many lesser brands fail also.

That said, in recent years, variable scopes have gotten MUCH better, and I do use some variables on some of my rifles with great satisfaction. I do, however remember the days of worrying about POI shift with power change[ a real problem with earlier variables ] and internal lenses shifting under recoil.

Does anyone wonder why the Marines choose a FIXED 10x Leupold for their M40's?
 
Ever stop to think that perhaps some people just LIKE the extra magnification? If everyone's tastes, wants, and needs were exactly the same, we'd have exactly 1 rifle and 1 scope in the world.

Ever stop to think that you're a silly person, who turns a logical question about a simple optical device into some sort of perceived personal attack?:rolleyes:

So...

Nobody has answered the question yet. What medium-sized game can you see and accurately aim at, with a 7X, that you can't with a quality 4X?

I have a 3-9x40mm on my primary "huntin' rifle." This is NOT a personal attack on anyone. If I thought there was something wrong with people who had variable scopes, not only would I be stupid, but I would be insane.

It is a serious question, and I would think the answer would be interesting. If there is an answer, I'd like to know. I think it would be a useful bit of information.

Why?

Because if there IS no answer, then, as Will Fennel explains above, my next rifle will wear a fixed scope.

If there IS a good answer, then a variable might be in the cards again.

If I can see a tiny ground squirrel's head clearly enough to aim at it, at 100 yards, with a 4X I'm leaning towards thinking there's no good answer. But I could be DEAD WRONG. I'd love to know.

Also, the OP wants a light scope for a compact rifle. That matters, too. If magnification were everything, why not get a bigger scope? Clearly, there are good reasons for various tradeoffs.

Inquiring minds want to know -- not to argue with a series of passionate rhetorical questions leading nowhere.:)
 
Nobody has answered the question yet. What medium-sized game can you see and accurately aim at, with a 7X, that you can't with a quality 4X?

There is an answer, but the question is worded wrong. The question is:

"At what distance, with medium-sized game, can you see and accurately aim at and hit, with a 7X, that you can't with a quality 4X?"

And there IS an answer to the question, definitely. But it depends on the quality of one's one eyesight, the ambient lighting conditions, the brush or other camoflauging items surrounding the game, etc. It might be 125 yards for some, 150 yards for others, and 200 or more for others, depending upon conditions and eyesight.

Make no mistake ArmedBear, a 7 power is clearly and unequivocally better for game under certain circumstances than a 4 power. It won't come into play until past 100 yards, and it won't come into play under optimal lighting conditions, but it WILL come into play at some distance, under some circumstances, without a doubt. If you can't make out the tannish-gray heart-lung area of the deer (which is not moving) from the grayish-tan of the woody flora next to the deer, under fading light, you can't take the shot. These circumstances don't come up very often, espec. in the East, but they do come up occasionally.
 
variable scopes, of any brand, have more parts, and significantly more movingparts than fixed power scopes.


A Toyota Camry has more moving parts than a 30 year old Ford Mustang but does that make it less reliable? The number of moving parts has nothing to do with anything. How many more moving parts are there in a variable scope compared to an "equivalent" fixed power scope from the same manufacturer? We're not talking about a space shuttle compared to Cessna here are we?

Does anyone wonder why the Marines choose a FIXED 10x Leupold for their M40's?

Does anyone wonder why the the British SAS have a Schmidt & Bender 5-25x on their L115A2 rifles? For every unit that uses a fixed power scope you can find a unit that uses a variable. Leupold has a contract with a bunch of US military units for variable power scopes. If you don't believe me call them up and ask them.

That said, in recent years, variable scopes have gotten MUCH better, and I do use some variables on some of my rifles with great satisfaction. I do, however remember the days of worrying about POI shift with power change[ a real problem with earlier variables ] and internal lenses shifting under recoil.

That's the WHOLE point. This discussion is about CURRENT variable and CURRENT fixed power scopes for folks here thinking about buying a scope for their rifle. What's the point in "I do, however remember the days of worrying about POI shift with power change[ a real problem with earlier variables ] and internal lenses shifting under recoil" ... it's TOTALLY irrelevant since who here is looking at buying a 20 year old scope?

The CURRENT iterations of variable power scopes are similar in weight, are just as reliable, and are just as clear as CURRENT fixed power scopes. Again, if you don't believe me call the tech department at Leupold. So if you're in the process of making a decision about fixed vs. variable, decide based on what suits your needs, particularly what you plan to use the scope for and not on old tales of "move moving parts, less reliable, less clear" etc.

:)
 
My eyes suck, even more so as I've gotten older. I wear glasses. I want a variable scope. Rule #1 when hunting is knowing what you're shooting at. The fixed powers are sweet if they work for you.

As for the Marine snipers using fixed 10x, sure they do, and I also bet they all have 20/20 or better vision, have a spotter along with them, and are in the prime of their life.
 
A Toyota Camry has more moving parts than a 30 year old Ford Mustang but does that make it less reliable?

Apples to oranges.

A VXII and and FXII are both current products, with ostensibly similar quality parts, made the same factory, using the same machinery, and with the same engineers designing them.

Compare a car like a BMW 3 Series, one with RWD, the other with AWD. Which one will need more repairs over time? You know the answer.

The CURRENT iterations of variable power scopes are similar in weight, are just as reliable, and are just as clear as CURRENT fixed power scopes.

Again, apples to oranges.

Scopes like this are available for $25 to $2500.

If you compare at the same price, you will find that you are wrong. If you're willing to pay more for variable, you can be right -- about everything except reliability. Moving parts mean parts that are more likely to break than fixed parts. The difference may be small -- maybe too small to matter to any of us -- but it is not zero and never will be zero.
 
And in return for a very small decrease in potential reliability, my VXIII 1.75x-6x allows me to dial down to 1.75x when I'm stalking game in the deep woods and dial it back up towards 6x when stalking the game in the open fields between the thickets.

<shrug>

I'll take that tradeoff.
 
Will Fennell said:
Does anyone wonder why the Marines choose a FIXED 10x Leupold for their M40's?

Will, I just had a thought re the Marine's choice of the 10x fixed and the SAS's choice of the Schmidt and Bender variable. The S&B is a front focal plane (FFP) model which means the reticle can be used for ranging at any magnification.

http://schmidtbender.com/scopes_policemarksman.shtml

The FFP versions of variable scopes are considerably more expensive than the second focal plane (SFP) versions ... I know because I have both types. By choosing a fixed 10x, the user won't have to worry (or think/or check) that the magnification is on the max setting for quick ranging and target engagement. Holdovers for bullet drop and wind drift would be more complicated too with a SFP variable. So it's possible that the Marine's chose the fixed 10x for reasons other than the supposed lack of reliability.

rbernie, I have a couple of Leupold 1.5-5x scopes on my Marlins and they're the perfect match for those rifles ... and I completely agree with your statement.

:)
 
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ArmedBear said:
Compare a car like a BMW 3 Series, one with RWD, the other with AWD. Which one will need more repairs over time? You know the answer.

HA!! I have two Audi Allroads BOTH of which have Audi's Quattro AWD system. One is an '02 the other an '03 and guess what ... neither one has had ANY drivetrain-related problems. Now you're going to tell me that I should have chosen a RWD car since it'll be more reliable. :D

Moving parts mean parts that are more likely to break than fixed parts. The difference may be small -- maybe too small to matter to any of us -- but it is not zero and never will be zero.

Finally something I agree with ... but it really would be interesting to get some hard data. Don't forget, if variables outsell fixed power scopes 10:1 then you'd expect 10x the number of problems if they're equally reliable ... right? However, so far I haven't seen ANY data to substantiate ANY claim that MODERN variable scopes are less reliable than their fixed counterparts.

All I know is that I have seven Leupold variable power scopes that have been on .308 Win, .300 Win Mag, .300 WSM, a Mini-14, .45-70 etc , some for years and with ZERO (that means NO) problems. Now I will admit that it's early days on the Guide Gun and XLR but if a scope can handle those (and the notoriously "vicious" Mini-14) then there's not much to worry about.

:)
 
Now you're going to tell me that I should have chosen a RWD car since it'll be more reliable.

No, I'm going to tell you that you have limited reading comprehension skills because that was not my point.

And as the owner of an AWD car and a 4WD Jeep, I assure you that, if you keep your Audis, you will pay more to fix the parts of the AWD system when they wear out, than you would have paid for a FWD Audi drivetrain -- after you paid more for the car.

Worth the price? Well, a car wrapped around a pole in the snow is even MORE expensive than the maintenance, so probably yes. But if you think that, over time, no more will break on your AWD car than on a 2WD version, I've got a bridge to sell ya.

Finally something I agree with

Well, you changed your mind then, because you insisted that there was no difference beacuse Leupold says there isn't.

The fact is, Leupold hardly makes any fixed scopes. For them to admit any difference would be contrary to their business interests. There's nothing scientific about that.

Again, there's surely nothing wrong with accepting a downside -- especially a small one -- because you want the upside. However, a belief that there is no downside is simply not reality.

And... if someone simply says, "Well, I want a variable, even though I don't know why, because maybe I'll want it at some point," they probably should factor in the downside.

Leupolds are well-made scopes. Audis, Subarus, etc. have great AWD systems and won't have the problems that an AMC Eagle did.:)

However, my 1987 Toyota 2WD pickup went a good deal farther, with fewer breakdowns, and a lot less maintenance cost, than the Subaru we've got.

Now the front-heavy Toyota with awful rear traction spun out on the highway a few times, and I'm lucky to be alive. I'll take the tradeoff, and I prefer a car with better weight distribution, AWD, ABS, and more modern tires than I had on the truck back in the '80s and '90s, even though all these things are more expensive to maintain -- sometimes much more expensive.

But to believe that the Subaru will require as little mechanical work in the long run as that simple old truck would be delusional, as a quick perusal of our household expenses over time would demonstrate.:)

I think that the most accurate thing to say would be: "Leupold's current lineup of variables is so reliable that, unlike the old ones, there's not much for an average hunter to worry about."

However, as Will Fennel says, the military does use fixed scopes, for average Marines, too, not just snipers.

One final note... For the rifle in question, I really like the "Frontier" version. The low-power, forward mounted scope really works, at least as I'd envision using the stubby little rifle, which is to say, out to MPBR for quicker shots. Past that, I'd rather have a longer barrel, so the muzzle closer to the target.;)
 
Looking at scopes for a Ruger 77 Frontier in .308 and this line from Art Eastman struck me.
I generally only crank a variable to the higher magnification when I don't have concern about field of view.
I lost a deer once because I was stupid and left the 3-9X variable riding on my 1885 on "9" instead of on "3" where it belonged. I could not find the deer in the scope. When I did find it, my shot was marginal, so I did not take it. Lesson learned.

Variables are nice because of the flexibility, and fixed powers are nice because of the lack of flexibility. Each has its role. For the Frontier, I am leaning toward the Leupold 2.5X scope since the 16" barrel means this is not going to be a long-range rig.
 
One of my favorite rifles is my Model 7 in 7mm-08, which I have a Leupold VXII 2-7x33mm (gloss). I've taken a few deer at first light and a few at last light around 200-250 yards with it and was quite happy.

Also quite a few more when light wasn't a factor out to around 400 yards.

Model7-1.gif
 
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