lever action load gate or top loading?

[shrewd]

say i'm deciding between a marlin or henry big boy in .357

the henrys i've noticed tube mag i've noticed is loaded from the barrel's end instead of the usual side loading gate.

can someone explain to be the differences between the two? is once necessarily better/worse?

 

[CaliCoastie]

dont know about better or worse, just different. I love marlins, so i lean that direction. not really sure how the henry works, but marlins have been working the same way for a long time.

 

[IBEWBULL]

http://www.shootingtimes.com/longgun_reviews/henry_111706/

Here is a link on loading the Henry.
It loads like a tube feed .22 from the front.
I would say unloading would be fster and safer but as for better, it is personal preference.
I have not owned or shot Henry, I have several Marlins and like them all.
Good luck in your choice.
Is there a reason for the .357? Just wondering,

 

[jmr40]

Marlin

 

[shrewd]

well i don't really hunt, though i'm open to going if my buddies every get a group thing together. mostly i just really really enjoy shooting. i guess you could call me a burgeoning gun nut, and the .357 is the cheapest to shoot (22 excluded of course).

plus i'd like to get a nice revolver soon, and was thinking about a .357, probably a ruger gp100


basically its a good plinking round that can serve several other purposes, whereas a .22 would only be a plinker.


plus, while ill soon get a .22, i'd prefer a "serious" caliber, if you take my meaning

 

[shrewd]

i guess my real purpose is to alleviate any fear of making the wrong choice if i pick up a henry big boy tomorrow. i've heard you can't "top off" the mag tube with a top loader as you would a side loader.

i'm assuming you can shoot it the same? i dont understand how a top loader works i guess, how it keeps the bullets pressed towards the action and such. it just seems...strange when compared to a side load gate

 

[Jim Watson]

The Henry tube magazine works the same as a .22 tube magazine, you should be able to find one to look at and learn the mechanism.

 

[sappyg]

like others i can't say which is better. i know what i prefer and that is a side load gate. i can understand the tube feed for a 22 lr but not so much for a centerfire.
what really matters is what you are comfortable with. the first lever actions were loaded from the tube. they were also rimfires. tube feed loading is natural for a lever gun though the loading gate is an obvious improvement IMHO.

 

[greyling22]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfv7vH0P8ac that's a semi-automatic 22, but it loads the same way as the henry. the guy loads it at around 1:45 in.

personally I'd go with the marlin. I have 2, they're super. my 2nd coice would be a rossi 92 (clone of a winchester) Both marlin and rossi are easily made much nicer and easier to work the action on. Every person I have ever handed my marlin 357 to has loved it. Lots of fun. It shoots 38's too. For hunting it's good for a medium sized deer at 100 yds. You are on the right track about getting a 357 revolver too. A cheaper option to shoot might be a 9mm carbine like the keltec sub2000 or hipoint carbine. Heck, a saiga in 7.62 or 223 is probably cheaper to shoot than a 357. I would take a marlin lever over any of those options and day though.

 

[Hunt480]

not knockin Henry, but I like the marlins

 

[GCBurner]

The original Civil War vintage Henry rifle was a front loader. It became a side loader when Oliver Winchester took them over, and added King's patented loading gate, turning the Henry into the Model 1866 Winchester.
I think the current Henry company just kept the bronze frame and front loading feature for old time's sake.

 

[shrewd]

i love the bronze/brass frame but a side loading gate just seems much more natural to me, but i'd REALLY like to pick this up tomorrow and so far the only store that has confirmed availability only has a henry big boy and two rossis

honestly, how woudl you guys compare a rossi to a henry or marlin?

if i chose the rossi, would i be "settling"

 

[BCRider]

A Rossi '92 clone isn't a bad option either. My cowboy action rifle is a Rossi '92 clone. It wan't bad at all right out of the box and was slowly smoothing itself out when I took it apart and used the online article info to smoothen up a bunch of the stuff and reduce the trigger pull by clipping the mainspring. I need to go back inside and redo some of the stuff a little more since I "walked instead of ran" when I did it and went conservative on a couple of spots knowing that I could revisit it if things were not totally right. I'm new to gun smithing but not new to metal working. And one thing I've learned is that the supply of "metal stretchers" is very limited. I'm still awaiting delivery of one so in the meantime I've found it's best to not get too carried away when I'm still learning....

If you're not comfy doing such work yourself a local smith that specializes in cowboy action gun work will certainly be familiar with what is needed. And it's not like this is a Rossi only issue. Most of the lever guns on the market can be slicked up in ways that will make you grin like a silly schoolboy at how much nicer they can be compared to factory stock condition.

In any event I tend to agree that the side gate is a nice feature. I've got a .22 bolt rifle with the front tube load (not TOP load as you originally called it) and frankly while I like the gun the loading drill is a bit of a pain. And then there was the time when the pin lock on the spring loaded plunger got away from me and I had to ask for a cease fire so I could retrieve the plunger from about 10 feet in front of the firing line....:banghead:

The bottom line is be patient. It's far better to "wait for Christmas morning" for another few days or weeks so you get the gun you actually want.

The good news is that .357 from a lever gun is great fun for plinking. Full house loads definetly set the gun back in your shoulder. Not as much as a .44Mag lever gun but they do have some personality. On the other hand shooting my cowboy action .38 loads in the same gun is pretty much akin to shooting a light .22 rifle.

Be it .357 or .44 Mag either of them is pricey for buying factory ammo. If you don't have either gun yet and want to get a matched pair may I suggest that you go for .44mag instead. The key to this suggestion is that you would jump into reloading your own at the same instant. Through the miracle of reloading you have far more control over the power of your loads and can produce anything from mild plinking loads that would not upset a grandmother to total shoulder dislocators and everything between. And the handgun can share the loads with perhaps the "shoulder dislocators" being reserved for the rifle....

And if you are looking at hunting at some point a .44 Mag round with a heavy hardcast lead bullet will certainly do the job be it from your handgun or rifle.

 

[jmr40]

My short answer earlier was simply Marlin. Here is why.

#1
Pistol caliber carbines are supposed to be trim lightweight rifles that are easy to carry. The Marlin meets that criteria. The Henry really is a BIG BOY. They are a beast. If I'm carrying around a rifle that heavy it will be chambered in a big cartridge.

#2
Topping off the magazine is much easier with the side loading gate. I also consider it safer than having your hands near the muzzle. Yea the chamber is supposed to be empty while loading and unloading, but we all know it is usually the "unloaded" gun that goes off injuring someone.

#3
Taking the loading tube in and out repeatedly will eventually wear it out. I've got several tube magazine guns that either no longer functin, or at least give problems.

 

[CraigC]

Marlin or 1892 replica all the way. The Henry is ugly as sin and absurdly heavy. At least two pounds heavier than a comparable Marlin.

 

[shrewd]

thanks for the info everyone

 

[TonyAngel]

Maybe a little late, but I have a Rossi in .357. I got the carbine with the 16" barrel and I have to say that it's mighty handy. Since I got it, I've found myself grabbing the little lever gun instead of my usual AR when I go tromping through the woods.

The thing about the Rossi is that it isn't as smooth, out of the box, as a Marlin is. It just doesn't have the same level of refinement. The other thing is that like the Winchester, it is a top ejector. This means that adding a scope, should you want to, will be a problem.

As for the side vs. tube loading, each has its pros and cons. The last time that my son and I took the lever gun out, we put a good 300 rounds through it. By the end of the session, my thumb was really sore from loading rounds. I could see how this wouldn't be a problem with the tube fed.

Still, a good point was previously made. The type of lever gun that you are interested in is supposed to be handy. Something that you can sheath in you back pack on wear across your back and forget that you have it, until you need it and the Henry just doesn't fill this role. Personally, I got mine as a companion to my Ruger Blackhawk. I love them.

I am now considering going with a .44 setup, but am glad that I started with the .357. Even when you load your own, .44 is more expensive to shoot than .357 is and when you load the .357 to its fullest capability, it certainly is no whimp.

If I had to choose between the Marlin and the Henry, I'd get the Marlin. I think it's a better built rifle. Now, if I could find a Marlin carbine that is tube fed, it would be a no brainer for me. I'd buy it on the spot.

 

[TUBBY1]

Got a puma 92 big loop carbine and love it. Nothing wrong with marlin, got one in30-30. Do like the 357 and shoot alot of 38 out of it too.i love my gp100 6" and my sp101. You can never have too many guns in the same caliber.

 

[shrewd]

well, after a long search today, i ended up coming home with an old, though suposedly unfired, marlin 1894c in .357.

i can't wait to fire it. after calling so many shops and following up on reccomendations of users here and on thefiringline.com, i actually found it at a tiny little hole in the wall store i randomly passed on my way to another place. walked in, asked the tired old question "do you have a lever action in .357, by any chance?" and his face brightened up and he said i sure do and POOF, it was that easy.

i wanted to still check out a longer rossi, but the guy at the store didnt give me the time of day so i went back and picked it right up.


i have a big smug smile on my face now, thanks guys!

 

[TonyAngel]

A Marlin 1894 can never be a bad choice.

 

[StrawHat]

shrewd ...i've heard you can't "top off" the mag tube with a top loader as you would a side loader...

What you have heard is correct. However, they remark was written concerning the Winchester 1895, which is a different type of lever action rifle. I guess an older Savage 99 is also a top loader but I have no experience with them. The 1895 loads through the top of the action, similar to a bolt action rifle.

 

[Picher]

About the only advantage to a tube-loading lever rifle is that they are easier on ammo when hunting. Hunters repeatedly load and unload guns as they go from hunting one place to another, or back home. Rounds run through the action to unload get banged around more than those allowed to slide out a tube.

I've seen folks who had hunted for twenty years with a Win 94, or Marlin and still had some of the original cartridges from when they started. The cartridges looked terrible! I wouldn't have put them in my rifles. Of course, I'd have shot them within the year they were bought, at game or just for fun and practice.

 

[Crunchy Frog]

I started Cowboy Action Shooting about a year ago. We use lever action rifles in pistol calibers and the .357 (shooting .38 special usually) is the most popular caliber. In my local club a monthly match is about 60 rifle rounds and 60 pistol rounds which is pretty typical. Lots of cowboy shooters go to more than one club each month. Factor in a little practice on top of that and do the math; cowboys put a lot of lead downrange. The membership numbers in SASS (Single Action Shooting Society) has topped 90,000. The cowboys can tell you from experience what guns work, over the long haul with "high mileage". The game is about speed, so guns that run rough, or break down, don't make it.

Several years ago the Marlin was highly favored, in part because the lever stroke was a little shorter than the Winchester '66 and '73 (which employ the same toggle action) and the Winchester '92. The shorter stroke gave the Marlin a speed advantage.

Later on the tinkerers figured out a way to change the angles on the links in the '66/'73 models and create "short stroke" kits that made the lever stroke shorter than the Marlin's. Coupled with the simple mechanics of the old Winchester design, the "short stroked" '73 is now the most coveted lever rifle in CAS. They are also darned expensive, almost twice the cost of a stock Marlin.

I've used the Marlin rifle a number of times and at my skill (speed) level it is probably more than adequate. On the other hand, I really like the style of the '73 and I saved up for the difference.

The '92 is a nice rifle IF well made. Some of the modern guns (except for the Marlin most of the cowboy guns are reproductions, most imported) are pretty rough but can be improved (insert dollar signs here). The '92 (invented by John M. Browning, donchaknow) mates a stronger locking mechanism with a more compact frame than the venerable '73 (dubbed "the Gun That Won the West"). If you want to shoot full power magnum ammo, the '92 is probably better than the older designs.

The '92's strengths, though, are not needed in CAS since the rules mandate ammo with lead bullets at low to medium velocities for safety's sake (we shoot steel targets at relatively short range). The '92 will not run as fast as the toggle guns or the Marlins, so they are less favored by the Cowboys.

OK, some caveats, retractions and apologies. There are thousands and thousands of '92s in use in CAS. They can be made to run pretty well (Google "Nate Kiowa Jones" to see what can be done to improve ($) a '92). John Wayne used a '92 in the movies (even those set before 1892) and the Cowboys say, "the Duke can do no wrong".

The Henry Big Boy? You don't see many of them at CAS matches, even though SASS made a rule change to allow use of the "modern" Henry, which isn't a reproduction of anything, not even the original Henry, although both have front loading tube magazines.

One drawback of the front loading Big Boy in SASS has to do with our system of running dozens or hundreds of shooters through live fire matches without putting unwanted holes in one another. We have a "loading table" where the shooter comes to load his shooting irons. After you finish shooting the stage, you go to an unloading table where someone supervises you unloading to confirm your guns are clear. Both tables are oriented so that your guns are pointed at a berm (in a safe direction) when laid on the table.

When you are loading a Marlin, for example, you can lay the rifle on the loading table, pointed at the berm, and leave it there while you stuff cartridges in the side loading gate. Very safe and under control.

To load a Henry Big Boy, you have to stand the gun up vertically (or nearly so) to pull out the magazine tube from the front and drop the cartridges down, then manipulate the tube back into place. Not quite as "foolproof" as loading a rifle laying on its side pointing downrange.

If you like the lever guns, I'd suggest you visit a local Cowboy match and see them in action before you buy. You can talk to the shooters and see lots of different types of rifles side by side. There's a good chance someone will invite to you try shooting a stage, but beware. It's habit forming.

You can find a local club at http://www.sassnet.com/clubs/index.php

 

[greyling22]

Congratulations!, an 1894c in 16" is a fabulous gun. 16" is a handier length than a 20." The older ones didn't have a safety which a lot of people like better. The only bad thing I have heard about older marlins is they tried a microgroove barrel for a while which was supposed to shoot a jacketed bulletl better than a standard barrel, but doesn't do as well with lead. Mine has a microgroove barrel, I only shoot lead, and I can't say I have ever had an accuracy problem.

If you're slightly handy you can do a pretty good trigger job on a marlin yourself. If not, it's money well spend at a gunsmith. You can easily drop your trigger pull to 3lbs and work the lever smoothly with 1 finger with a bend in 2 places, cutting 2-3 coils off the hammer spring, and replacing a small spring with one from a free clicky bank pen cut in half.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The original Civil War vintage Henry rifle was a front loader. It became a side loader when Oliver Winchester took them over, and added King's patented loading gate, turning the Henry into the Model 1866 Winchester.

Oliver Winchester already owned them. He had loaned money to Smith and Wesson when they ran the Volcanic Arms Company. When the company went bankrupt, he got the assets of the company. He hired B. Tyler Henry to improve the Volcanic (orginally designed by Hunt and Jennings.)

Henry realized the main problem of the Volcanics was the ammunition -- they used a hollow base bullet filled with fulminate of mercury. Smith and Wesson meanwhile had started a new firm, the now-famous Smith and Wesson, and were manufacturing a tiny revolver. They had developed a cartridge -- the very first true metallic cartridge, which we now know as the .22 Short.

Henry made improvements to the Hunt and Jennings designs, and scaled up the .22 Short to .44 caliber. The resulting rifle was called the Henry rifle. But Winchester owned the company.