Lever gun caliber

[Don McDowell]

Reloading for the 30-30 especially with cast is just as inexpensive as the 357.
Not to mention that using unique, bludot or 2400 behind 170 gr bullets in either cartridge takes very little difference in powder charge. Plus when you explore the data in such places as Lyman reloading handbook, you'll soon see that both cartridges can be loaded to the same velocity, but the 30-30 does so at less pressure than the 357.
I shoot various types of competition, and when going into a levergun "gong" match nearly every time choose the 30-30 over the pistol cartridge leverguns, simply because there are targets beyond 100 yds and the better bc and sd of the 30-30 bullets makes getting hits at those extended distance a lot easier.

 

[BCRider]

Don, you're lucky then. Up my way I can get 158gn .358 size bullets for $6.70 per 100. But 165gn .309 cast bullets for .30-30 are $14.50 per 100.

But local price issues aside I do agree that the .30-30 option and reloading for it is a nice way to go if the OP is willing and keen to get into reloading for this caliber anyway.

 

[Don McDowell]

BC who ever is jerking your prices around that bad needs to loose some business.
I cast my own, and 150 grs of alloy is 150 grs of alloy don't matter what the diameter of the bullet.
Check these guys out http://www.cheycast.com/catalog.htm

 

[CraigC]

BC who ever is jerking your prices around that bad needs to loose some business.
I cast my own, and 150 grs of alloy is 150 grs of alloy don't matter what the diameter of the bullet.

Doesn't work that way with commercial cast bullets. Commercial casters price by material AND sales volume. I guarantee most casters sell 100 .358's for every .309".

I looked back at commercial offerings and .30-30 cast bullets are comparable to .358's in cost. That said, I still don't think it makes sense as a 100yd range toy. For carbide dies, cheap plentiful brass and a reduced need to trim cases if nothing else.

 

[Don McDowell]

Craig you did look at the link I posted?
For a hundred yard plinker what difference does it make whether it's a 309 or 358 170 gr bullet trottin along at 12-1500 fps as far as making any sense?
That's the wonder of reloading, you can make a single rifle do many jobs, and do them well.

 

[Don McDowell]

And further on if you search hunters supply bullets at midway, there's 6$ difference in a box of 500 between 30-30's and 357.
357 needs a 3 die set, 30-30 just the plain ol two dies, so the supposed advantage of the carbide is lost in the cost.

 

[CraigC]

Craig you did look at the link I posted?

Did you actually read what I posted???

For a hundred yard plinker what difference does it make whether it's a 309 or 358 170 gr bullet trottin along at 12-1500 fps as far as making any sense?

One more time, carbide dies, cheaper and more plentiful brass, easier to procure bullets, etc., etc.. I have to order .30's but can buy .358's locally at a lower cost. I've never been in a shop that sold cast bullets for the .30-30.

This is purely objective as I own zero .357's but several .30-30's. I just don't see any advantage if you're only punching paper out to 100yds. Do it if that's what you want to do.

Do you really need that badly for others to validate your choice???

 

[Don McDowell]

Not "validating" anything. Simply pointing out the false hood of some of the statements made about how much more expensive cast bullets for the 30-30 are.
I don't live anywhere near a gunshop, so if I don't cast the bullets myself, I buy them thru mailorder houses, and the 16$ for flatrate boxes most bullet casters etc use, wouldn't even buy enough gas/diesel to get to a shop that might sell cast bullets.
A quick check with Grafs shows the difference in new unprimed brass between the two cartridges to be minimal.
Have owned rifles in both cartridges over the years, do not currently have a 357, but none of the 30-30's gathered over the last 50 years have left my possession.

 

[HoosierQ]

The 30-30 in a very light lever carbine does produce some felt recoil. Frankly maybe a little too much for a lot of range fun. Plus, they get pretty hot. I shot about 14 rounds through mine rather quickly and it was very hot, much of the metal being too hot to touch. Mine was a late vintage pre-Miroku Winchester 94 with the push button safety. That gun in that caliber is meant to hunt!...not crank round after round down range for a fun day of shooting.

That's what 22lr is for (or any AR-15 for that matter).

If you're not going to hunt with it and you want centerfire choose the .357. Of course a LOT of people hunt with .357 lever guns...so you can hunt with it too if you wish!

 

[claiborne]

Buy another 39A

Definitely buy another 39A.

 

[CraigC]

I don't live anywhere near a gunshop...

I would say your perspective is heavily dependent on casting your own bullets.

I already conceded on the cost of buying cast bullets online. However, as I said, .358's are plentiful locally. .30's are not. Hence, they still cost more, a lot more.

I don't know what brass you're looking at but 500rds of Starline .357 is $76 and I see no .30-30's that are not at least double.

I still don't see a reason to lube and trim cases if all you're doing is punching paper out to 100yds.

 

[shafter]

If its just a range toy and you don't plan on hunting with it a 357 magnum would give you the most bang for your buck. It uses the smallest amount of lead and powder and the brass lasts a long time. If hunting were part of the equation I'd make it a 45 Colt or 44 Magnum - or a 30-30 for that matter.

 

[birdshot8's]

You should hold out for 444, since you already have a 44. All of your 44 bullets wil work in the 444 and you came load the big stuff for serious fun. Or you can do as most Marlin owners and try to get one in every caliber.

 

[Buck13]

You should hold out for 444, since you already have a 44. All of your 44 bullets wil work in the 444 and you came load the big stuff for serious fun.

Yes, I thought of that. 429421s would be fun, but it's really more gun than I need. If someone was dangling one in front of me, I'd probably bite, but they're not that common around here, as far as I can tell.

 

[moonzapa]

I would opt for a .444 Marlin or a 45-70. Both have plenty of knock down and will outperform the 30-30. Regardless, the Marlins are the optimum selection for lever guns, in my opinion, because you can easily mount a scope on top of the receiver. Can't do that with a Winchester, Rossi, etc. Of course, I'm not a lever gun purist in any sense of the word. Good Shooting!!!

 

[jimherb]

The real trick is actually FINDING a Rossi92 in .357. Any idea who has them these days?

 

[content]

^that's the truth....a friend walked up to me at the last gun show..(normally a reserved fellow) he had a huge grin and was carrying a Marlin in .357 paid $375, well below market, and it looked hardly used. Called him a dog and started moving faster!

I need to get to the shows a bit earlier.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I do not hunt, so I never had a need for a 30-30. I actually owned one many, many years ago. It was a Winchester Model 1894 that had actually been cut down from a rifle. The barrel had been shortened to about 20". The magazine had been shortened to the length of the fore arm. It was plain that it had been cut down because the dovetail on the underside of the barrel that used to house the magazine hanger was still there. And unlike the carbines, this one had a crescent butt rifle stock. Well, I had no idea what the proper way was to mount a crescent butt plate, and with its short barrel this was a very light rifle. And let me tell you, if you mount a crescent butt plate incorrectly with a light rifle, and fire standard factory 30-30 rounds, it hurts like hell! I could only take a couple of rounds and I had to stop shooting it. Unfortunately that rifle was stolen a few years later. I wish I still had it, now that I know how to properly shoot a crescent butt plate rifle.

So since I don't hunt, I felt it would be silly to buy another 30-30, although I have five or six lever guns chambered for 44-40, 38-40, and one Marlin chambered for 357 Mag. More on that one later. There are always plenty of used 1894 Winchester carbines on the used racks, but I was not really interested in buying one, until last year when I came upon a really nice old one, made about 1943 or so. I have a weakness for old guns. The price was right and I bought it. I also bought a couple of boxes of Federal 150 grain soft point ammo. Fully remembering my experience years ago with the cut down Winchester, I brought my new purchase to the range with a little bit of trepidation. It was a hot summer day and I was only wearing a light shirt. And the old '94 has its original steel butt plate, no rubber cushioned butt plate. I squeezed off a couple of rounds from the bench, and I have to tell you, it did not hurt like that old crescent butt plate did, but it was uncomfortable. I had to fold up a rag and put it between me and the butt plate to keep shooting.

Oh, I bought some brass, and dies, and bullets, but to tell you the truth, I have not been enthusiastic enough to actually load up any light loads for the old '94.

The lower gun in this photo is a very nice Marlin 1894CS, 18 1/4" barrel, chambered for 357 Mag. When loaded with 38 Specials, it is a delightful little gun to shoot. I can crank out ammo for it lickety split on my Hornady progressive press, and it has zero recoil when fired with 38s. Even with 357 Mags, the recoil is minimal, no problem at all. If I wanted to kick around tin cans at 50 yards or so with a centerfire rifle, this would be the one I would choose, not the 30-30.



P.S. The rifle a the top of the photo is a Marlin 1894, chambered for 44-40, made in 1895.

But really, if I want to kick around tin cans at the range, I will either use my Ruger 10/22, or my real favorite 22 plinker, this Winchester Model 61, made in 1941.

 

[Buck13]

The real trick is actually FINDING a Rossi92 in .357. Any idea who has them these days?

Big 5 stores in my neighborhood all claimed to have .357 Rossis in stock. Mostly 16" IIRC from my calls last week. Try them if that chain is in your area.

I picked up a 24" .357 SS M92 yesterday from a PM reply to this thread. Hope it won't be too many days b4 I get to shoot it.

 

[Buck13]

So, what IS the right way to mount a crescent butt plate?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

So, what IS the right way to mount a crescent butt plate?

Howdy

Today we usually put the butt of a rifle directly on the meaty part of the shoulder. And when shooting from a standing position we generally pretty much face the target. This is fine with a modern 'shotgun' style butt plate, but if you try it with a heavy recoiling rifle equipped with a crescent butt plate, it is going to hurt like hell. Take a look at the old 1894 Marlin at the top of this photo. That is a very typical 19th Century style crescent shaped butt plate. That rifle is a 44-40 and does not kick much, so it would not hurt if mounted in the modern style. But that little 30-30 Winchester of mine was murder because the points were driven right into the meaty part of my shoulder. I could only shoot a few rounds and then I had to quit.



I did not learn how to shoot a crescent butt plate until many years after that Winchester was stolen. The correct way is to hike the butt further out on the shoulder joint, so the points of the crescent encircle the shoulder joint. That way, the points will not dig into anything. The points actually hold the gun in place, and prevent it from slipping up or down. I find it helps to stand more at an angel to the target, holding the rifle more across my chest, and I also raise up my right elbow pretty high to bring the gun up to my face, rather than hunching over to bring my face down to the gun.

Most of the rifles in Cowboy Action Shooting have old fashioned crescent shaped butt plates on them. Here are my Uberti replica 1873 and my Winchester Model 1892.




This is my Uberti replica 1860 Henry.




And this is my Winchester Model 1873 made in 1887.



These rifles are all chambered for 44-40 or 38-40, which are pretty mild recoiling rounds out of heavy rifles like these. But you would be amazed how many Cowboy shooters decide to cover their crescent butt plates with a pad of some sort because they do not understand how to mount them properly, and they complain of the discomfort of the points digging into their shoulders.

Now I will admit, when I bought my 45-70 Pedersoli Sharps a number of years ago, I went with a shotgun style butt plate. I knew I was going to be doing a fair amount of shooting with it from the bench, and hiking the butt out far enough on the shoulder so that a Crescent butt plate would not hurt is inconvenient when shooting from a bench, and I sure as heck did not want a 45-70 slamming me in the shoulder. So I went with the shotgun style butt plate with the Sharps.

 

[peacemaker45]

Driftwood Johnson: you're quite right about the right way to use a crescent. Also about the need to lift the arm high, particularly since those old stocks generally have A LOT of drop at comb.

One thing you may be overlooking, though, regarding CAS. If you mount the rifle "crescent stock style," you're gong to have your arm way up in the air. If you then try to move your arm to throw the lever, it takes the shoulder with it, and the sights dance all over the place.

That's why most of the go fast types cut the crescents off straight, and replace them with a shotgun style. That permits the gun to be mounted closer in, the elbow to be carried low, and the shoulder to remain still while levering.

 

[peacemaker45]

PS: the technique described in the above post is the one advocated by Evil Roy and his disciples, who've been quite successful with it.

However, a second viable option is to carry the elbow high, and not really move the arm at all, but merely flex the fingers to work the lever. That will permit the use of a crescent stock without disturbing the sight picture. Of course, the finger extensors are kind of weak compared to the whole of the right arm, so this works best with a fairly smooth, short throw, as found on '73 race rifles. It's a little harder to do on the Browning actions.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Lever guns are kind of a question of how much fun you want to have, until they get crazy expensive to shoot.

Sort of like. Fun, Funner, WOW WHAT FUN and Dang, that's FUN but Spendy! IE Marlins Model: 39, 336, 1894 and 1895.

A 336 is a very practical rifle, but the 22 or 'pistol caliber' rifles are a lot more fun at the range.

 

[35Remfan]

357 mag makes the most sense for what your looking for. It would work for hunting should you get the itch. Cost wise 38 spl and 357's makes the most sense.

A step up and the 30-30 makes the next most sense. For a full power load that costs the least to shoot (both for reloading and store bought) nothing beats this caliber.