Light load - Newbie question

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JNeilWix

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I and a friend loaded our first rounds the other day. Using a recipe from a reloading manual that gave a starting load of 4.5 grains, I followed the often repeated advice to download 10% and work up. In hindsight, the starting load probably shouldn't have been downloaded.

The specifics of the resulting (9mm Luger) load are:
3.5 gr of Bullseye
115gr Plated bullet

I've been reading a good bit on lighter than recommended loads and the only danger I can find reference to is that of detonation, a phenomenon that a fair number of people seem to dispute even the existence of....

So, my question is, should I pull these rounds down and reload to the suggesting starting load of 4.9, or are these rounds safe to shoot?
 
Lyman #49 shows a starting load of 3.5 with a 115 jacketed bullet.
So you are safe.

But I doubt that load will cycle the slide on most pistols.

The 'reduce 10% rule only applies to data giving only the Max load, such as that from older Alliant manuals, etc.

You should never reduce a starting load any further as the chance of sticking a bullet in the barrel is increased.

It's not 'detonation' you need to worry about.
Its firing another round on top of a bullet already stuck in the barrel.

rc
 
Thanks...

I'd already considered the possibility of a squib. We've only loaded a few of the rounds to test, and I was planning on disassembling and checking the barrel if I couldn't see a new hole in the paper after every shot. :)

So, if Lyman #49 has this as a listed load, on what, out of curiosity, are you basing the assertion that it won't cycle the slide? (Not saying you're wrong, just wondering....)
 
Based on about 50 years experience reloading for auto pistols.

Starting loads often won't cycle the slide.
Especially on todays smaller guns with stiffer recoil springs.

But maybe yours will?
Just have to try it and see.

rc
 
Personal experience...fair enough. Usually a great teacher...

I'm planning on using my Ruger P89 as a test platform. I guess I'll see.

Thanks for you help...
 
I've been using published data since I began reloading, which is about 2 decades less than RC, and I have yet to experience any flaw or issues with published start data. Use it, don't alter it, it's good.

GS
 
If you don't mind hand cycling, shoot 'em. Why would you reduce below STARTING load? You should check at least two sources and start with the lowest starting load.
Assuming you are shooting 9x19 (one should ALWAYS reference the cartridge), then my load compilation for 115gn bullets (given plated to be loaded the same as a lead bullet) and Bullseye powder shows starting loads ranging from 3.5-4.5gn and MAX loads from 4.0-5.0gn (though some have loaded even heavier). Thus, you are starting at the lowest starting load my manuals show.
Remember, you aren't shooting the same gun or lot numbers of components shown in any given manual, so your results will differ, so I like to start at the lowest start load I can find in a manual.
 
JNeilWix, I see your new to the forum. One thing you'll learn here is that RC Model is one of the top information sources here.

Your being directed by one of the best.

He's right saying minimum loads most of the time won't cycle the slide reliably.

Your gun probably won't be reliable at minimum load let alone going 10% under. Semi-autos are just that way.

At minimum published load you just won't know until you try it. But just because it cycles 10 rounds doesn't mean it will be reliable. 500 rounds with no problems will tell you that.
 
Gamestalker/noylj:

Thank you. I realized after I'd assembled the cartridges that the "download by 10%" rule really only applied to max loads. I suspected that was the case, but didn't see any harm in being "ultra conservative."


Tightgroup/rcmodel:

I absolutely didn't mean to imply that I didn't believe RC. Nor did I intend to challenge his prediction. He's probably right....in fact if it does cycle I probably need new recoil springs... It just seemed like a specific enough prediction that there might have been more than speculation (even backed by experience) behind it....I just wondered...
 
No.
I'm no smarter then the next guy that shoots that load every day of the week and two boxes on Sunday and they cycle his gun perfectly.

And I didn't take it as you questioning what I said.

They may very well cycle a full size Ruger.
They may very well not cycle a 9mm pocket rocket with a light slide, strong springs, and a 2" barrel.

That's all I was saying without knowing what kind of gun you had.

It's all good anyway!
Just glad to try to help!

rc
 
Followup question:

You guys have pointed out that the plated bullets are to be loaded at cast lead bullets. And I had already noted the differing load data in the manuals.

Why is it necessary to load lead and/or plated bullets lighter than jacketed bullets?

Is it primarily to do with pressure (one or the other offers more friction moving down the barrel) or is the concern more with overheating the lead and causing leading in the barrel? Other reasons?

Just trying to educate myself....
 
JNeilWix said:
You guys have pointed out that the plated bullets are to be loaded at cast lead bullets. And I had already noted the differing load data in the manuals.



Why is it necessary to load lead and/or plated bullets lighter than jacketed bullets?



Is it primarily to do with pressure (one or the other offers more friction moving down the barrel) or is the concern more with overheating the lead and causing leading in the barrel? Other reasons?



Just trying to educate myself....
Click to expand...


With the softer bullet you don't need as much powder to get the job done. You will see higher velocity with a similar or lower charge weight using lead/plated in some cases.
 
rcmodel said:
Based on about 50 years experience reloading for auto pistols.

Starting loads often won't cycle the slide.
Especially on todays smaller guns with stiffer recoil springs.

But maybe yours will?
Just have to try it and see.

rc
Click to expand...

rcmodel, thanks for sharing your experience. With my 2 months of experience I thought I was doing something wrong when the starting loads were very weak. At least now I know it is not all me. I have changed my load workup routine now to just load 5 rounds with the starting load, and then determine where I want to start the ladder. One thing I found though was that the 9mm starting loads always seemed weak, but my 40S&W starting loads always seemed much better and even allowed me sometimes to start .1gr lower when working up my loads.
 
Plated bullets FAQ

Why is it necessary to load lead and/or plated bullets lighter than jacketed bullets?
Click to expand...
frequently ask questions about plated bullets http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q21-c1-Load_Data_for_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx Click link, go to bottom of page.
•What is the difference between Plated/Jacketed/Cast bullets
•How do I load Berry's Preferred Plated Bullets?
•How fast can I shoot these bullets?
•Can I shoot your plated bullets in my Glock?
•How thick is the "jacket" on your bullets?
•Is separation a problem with Plated Bullets?
•Why is there no cannelure in your bullets?
•Do you sell internationally?
•How do I get set up as a dealer?
•Load Data for Berry's Preferred Plated Bullets
Click to expand...
 
Followup question #2

I've retrieved my Lyman #49 from my friends house. I'm looking at page 341 which has the load I believe RCModel referred to. Interestingly, the load data I was attempting to use was from the Hornady Manual (9th edition) on page 771 which shows loading data for two Hordady bullets in the same table. One of those bullets is the 115gr HP XTP Item No. 35540. That's the same bullet the Lyman manual is referring to for their 3.5gr load. So...the other bullet that is referenced for that table in the Hornady manual is a 115gr FMJ RN Item No 35557. The Hornady Manual shows a starting load of 3.9gr with a COL/OAL of 1.100 (for the RN, the HP is a bit shorter).

My concern is with the OAL or seating depth for my bullet. (Which is not Hornady.) It is Rainier Ballistics, 115gr RN. Rainier suggests using data for jacketed bullets. http://www.rainierballistics.com/load-data/

My understanding is that seating a bullet too deeply can cause problems with over-pressure and that 9mm is fairly sensitive to that, so I want to get this right.... I found a database that lists the length of the Hornady projectile as 0.539". http://www.accurateshooter.com/ballistics/bullet-database-with-2900-projectiles/

I also used a micrometer to measure the Rainier projectile. There was some minor variance, but let's call it 0.564, or .025 longer than the Hornady projectile. So, in order to maintain the same internal case volume, should I not load to an OAL .025 longer than what is specified in the Hornady manual? (They specify 1.100, so I'm using 1.125, which is still less than the 1.169 max OAL.)

I note at this point that Lyman uses 1.090 for the JHP. Hornady uses 1.075 for the JHP.

Finally, should I worry about having too much internal case volume? The tech support at Alliant told me that having too much volume in the case would mean more air, and a faster burn rate that could spike pressure. Is that a valid concern in this load?

I apologize for all the agonizingly detailed analysis. It just seems prudent to go slow and make sure I've considered all the details before subjecting myself or a firearm to a dangerous load....
 
Q6. Do you offer loading data for Rainier bullets?

A. Loads for copper jacketed bullets can be used for Rainier copper plated bullets. We recommend a starting powder charge directly between the listed minimum and maximum load.
 
You are over-thinking this!

If you start at the starting load, any seating depth within reason makes absolutely no difference at all.

Once you get up near Max loads, it might, depending on the powder you are using.

But you are wasting your time worrying about the difference in bullet lengths with your Starting load.

rc
 
Shoot them and if they cycle your gun great. I doubt you will have to worry about a bullet stuck in the barel with 3.5 grs. I load MBC 125 lead with 3.7 of Bullseye, heavier bullet a litlle more powder but they cycle both my 9mms fine (Taraus PT99, XD subcompact) and are soft shooting.

As mentioned before you don't need to reduce starting loads.
Hodgdon and some other powder manafactures list starting loads. Allaint does not. If you are using data from Alliants site you need to reduce by 10% to start. I load plated at higher end lead lower in jacketed charges. Works for me, your milage may vary.
 
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Like RC said, depends on the gun. I bought some 115gr FMJ to shoot out of my Kahr (polygonal barrel:barf:) and being used to LRN in my CZ, I undercharged them enough the slide didn't cycle properly. It has a very stiff recoil spring.

They cycled my CZ's slide fine however.
 
I load X-treme 115gr PRN over 4.2gr of Bullseye at OAL of 1.145 and they cycle and shoot great in four different 9mm pistols. If memory serves me, I used a starting load of 3.9 with which they cycled the guns but felt really weak. Your loads should be plenty safe to shoot, but they may not cycle your gun and it'll have less recoil than a .22.

If it were me, I'd probably pull them if there aren't more than 20 or so just because youll be wasting good bullets and hard to come by powder.
 
Results

I finally got to the range with my friend who I've started reloading with. (I know, been a long time coming....holidays, work etc...)

The loads worked fine in my Ruger P89. They did cycle with not problem. They were soft shooting, but I wouldn't compare them to a .22... :)

The one issue that I can report is that in one of the groups of 5 I shot, the last round failed to lock the slide back. I view that as a probable consequence of the light load.

We'll load some more without the 10% reduction (at the starting load as suggested in Lyman) and repeat the test in some other guns.

Thanks for your help.
 
You guys have pointed out that the plated bullets are to be loaded at cast lead bullets
Click to expand...

Notsofast my friend. I've had much success using middle of the road jacketed data for plated. Just dont go all out balls to the wall with it and you're fine.
 
Guns differ, but I once found that a P225 would function with the usual 90% starting load but not 88%.

Doing the recommended 200 round break in ritual with a Kahr, I found that any factory load was reliable but my IDPA ESP power floor subsonics would not always drive the slide far enough to engage the slide stop on the last shot, even though they otherwise fed, fired, and functioned.
 
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