Light powder load + big case= Kaboom?

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Blakenzy

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I have heard this enough times to make me feel uncomfortable: A light powder charge in a large case makes your gun blow up. I do not recall the exact name for this phenomenon. So, it happens occasionally. But how occasionally? And with what type cartridges?

I am in the process of getting supplies to start loading 45ACP so my main concern is with that caliber. Is this occurence common to pistol cartridges? The 45ACP is a large case by autoloader standards, but can a light load in it cause a detonation? Or does this only happen in very large volume cases such as centerfire magnum rifle cases? Does it even happen at all or is it just a myth? What is it called in scientific terms?

It is easy to understand why a double charge will ruin your day, but why will a 1/4 or 1/8 load blow up your gun? Won't that set the stage for a very low pressure burn? How can low pressure destroy your gun? What gives!?!

This has been eating away at me and I can't find any answers.
 
The bottom line is that these stories ("squib load detonation" is the "scientific" term) have been circulating for decades and have never been "recreated in the laboratory". The idea that is floated about is that the small charge of powder lies below the level of the flash hole and is thus "detonated" all at once rather than burning progressively back to front. Seems like this behavior wouldn't be horribly difficult to recreate, if it existed...

I personally believe that these episodes are the result of careless handloaders trying to cover up their mistakes. Stick with published loads from respected sources and you'll not go wrong.
 
It's called SEE,(secondary explosion effect). it ONLY concerns light charges of slow burning powders like H-110 and W296. That's why you see warnings in the mnauals about NOT reducing H-110 and W296 BELOW the minimum load listed.

There has been and will always be those that don't believe it exists, BECAUSE it hasn't ever been duplicated in a laboratory. Tell that to those that have had it happen!

Lots of theories about just what goes on, Some say the primer lights only a small ammount of the poorly positioned powder, causing the bullet to jump forward, then stop. Then the rest of the powder ignites, the bullet then acts as a bore obstruction, causing the barrel to burst.

Others claim the powder lights at two points inside the case, when the two flame fronts meet, the powder detonates, causing an extremely high pressure spike. That spike takes the gun apart.

Light charges of fast burning powder are just fine, as long as you follow published load data.
 
Handloader magazine said that it takes a powder slower than IMR4895 and an over bore cartridge like a 243 and a severely eroded throat, and still they cannot make detonation happen in the lab.

I don't believe in it myself, as the wrong powder could be used to get that frequency of occurrence.

For huge cases and wimpy charges, like 45 Colt, I like Unique for consistent accuracy.
 
"Detonations" can't be duplicated at will in the lab, but it happens. Stay between the lines in your reloading manual and you will be fine. The .45 ACP is very forgiving and a great cartridge to learn on. :)
 
The bigger problem with super light loads is the bullet getting stuck in the barrel, then firing another round, then you get the Kaboom.
 
There was one on the SASS Wire a while back about the light load that just MUST have detonated to wreck a gun, the Perfect Reloader would not have made a stupid mistake like a double charge. But they kept investigating, kept running his setup, and found that sure enough, he had not double charged the POWDER, but had likely loaded two bullets over one charge. A bullet had stuck in the seating die, glued by bullet lube, and he had set another and rammed both down in the next cartridge.
 
No, no, no, no, no, and also, no. Physically impossible. The blowups that are blamed on "detonations" are in fact, the result of double, triple, and even quadruple charging. With many firearms, in fact, a double won't do it; has to be a triple or more. The whole "detonation" thing is utterly nonsensical and illogical, and goes utterly contrary to all known real laws of physics.

Gunpowder contains enough oxygen to burn itself completely, so dispersion makes no real difference to the amount of oxygen available (unlike explosions of flour, cornstarch, etc., which do not contain oxygen).

Gunpowder burns very, very quickly already, and it's not going to burn with any noticably greater speed no matter how you ignite it, plus such small charges will already be mostly exposed to the priming flame anyway. People have already tried messing with various stuff to try and get powder to burn faster, like the latest trend of making short, fat, magnum calibers, which supposedly ignite faster because more of the powder is closer to the primer. But for a given case volume, powder charge, and bullet, the teapot magnums have a less than 2% increase in muzzle velocity. People have also done fancy junk with tubes attached to the flash hole so that the primer lights up the charge from the front, or the center. Once again, insignificant differences. Considering the amount of blast that a primer produces (when used to shoot a .22 caliber pellet, the energy rivals mid-range pellet rifles), the turbulence from ignition is more than enough to "suspend" the powder inside the case, moments before ignition.

And "bullet jump" will only lower pressure in the chamber, not increase it. All that would happen with a "jumped" bullet is basically the equivalent of firing the same powder charge in a much larger case. You may have more pressure compared to a normal cartridge for when the bullet is in the same part of the barrel, because of increased friction, but there's no physical way it could exceed the normal maximum chamber pressure, and you'd be very hard pressed to find a gun with a weak enough barrel to be damaged by that, yet not by normal firing. I swear, one of these days I'm going to jam a bullet in a gun, and fire a regular powder charge to prove it (and the reason why you shouldn't unstick a bullet using a regular blank is because blanks are typically loaded with huge charges of very fast burning powder, rather than the normal charge, because a normal charge would just go "phhhht" when fired instead of "bang"). Why do you have to use a heavy roll crimp when using big charges of slow powders? Not because of some mythical bullet jump pressure spike, but because pressure drops, and velocity becomes anemic and inconsistent. Same reason why manufacturers say not to go below minimums with certain slow burning powders; too light of a charge will fizzle, and get a bullet stuck in the bore.

In short, it has never happened, and will never happen. Some idiot made up the theory to cover up the fact that he blew up a gun with a triple (or more) charged case, and a legend was born. And people continue to say "oh, it was a detonation!" because they refuse to admit the possibility that they double charged a case, or used the wrong powder, or whatever. It's really just the same old idiocy the human race is fond of, blaming inanimate objects rather than themselves.

This crap is right up there with "armor piercing bullets make holes through metal because the energy gets turned into heat and melts the metal!" and "a barrel gets ringed because the bullet's energy melts the barrel in one spot when it suddenly starts to move!" and all that other crap that somehow manages to lure in those that should know better. It may impress people to whom things like fire and the wheel may as well be magic, but to people that actually have some idea of how physics work...
 
Thank you RyanM...I love myth bustin'...Some of this may be to cover up a squib lodged in the barrel and another bullet fired after it.
 
All things are possible. I agree that double charges and squib charges lodging a bullet in the barrel are the cause 99.9 % of the time, yet I am unwilling to believe that a "detonation" cannot happen under certain circumstances. I am carefull about certain powders in certain cases and I am absolutely ANAL about SEEING EVERY POWDER CHARGE I seat a bullet over! I have an LED light shining into the case on my Hornady loader. I try to stay away from powders that barely fill the case, not so much worried about a detonation, but double charges. I prefer a bulky powder that fills some space and would make a double charge much more noticable. I also like powders that are a bit lighter in color so they are easier to see in the case. (Picky, I know,but we agreed thats OK, right Bushmaster?) :)

Oh Yea: I lodged a bullet in a 1911 years ago and as I was pulling the trigger again my brain was screaming oh S***, but my finger didn't hear. Talk about recoil!! It bulged the barrel pretty good. I turned the outside of the barrel and shot it a bunch more before I replaced it with a Firedragon barrel. I still have the old barrel. It looks fine outside but inside it has a real nice tight spot in the middle! That was 5.5 Grs. W231 under a 230 Gr. lead bullet. It will make you weak kneed for a moment thinking about what if!
 
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I think the answer is that while there remains some very small chance that a light load would detonate rather than burn, the chances are far more likely that the reloader put too much powder in, rather than too little.
 
jim watson said:
he had not double charged the POWDER, but had likely loaded two bullets over one charge. A bullet had stuck in the seating die, glued by bullet lube, and he had set another and rammed both down in the next cartridge.
That's actually happened to me a few times, but luckily I noticed it and corrected it before the rounds left the loading bench (the slightly higher effort when trying to seat two bullets should tip you off, but even if it doesn't, the case in crimp station without a bullet is a dead giveaway). I was loading .45 Colt cartridges with Hodgdon's Clays at the time. I don't remember the load, but it was something extremely light -- around 4 or 5 grains, perhaps? Anyway, it couldn't have filled more than 10-20% of the case, so there was plenty of room for a pair of 250 gr bullets on top of the charge. I load mostly black powder these days, so while I still have an occasional bullet "stick" in the seating die, it is immediately obvious. You simply can't cram two bullets into a case that is already full of black powder, no matter how strong you are.
 
halvey said:
The bigger problem with super light loads is the bullet getting stuck in the barrel, then firing another round, then you get the Kaboom.

I agree 100%. It is compounded by the sensitivity of some powders to position in the case. There are some light loads that may work well so long as the powder is back against the primer when the cartridge is fired, but that same load will produce a squib if the powder is at the other end of the case (up against the bullet) when fired. That's why I dislike any recipe that calls for a small volume of propellant in a large capacity case.
 
Rule number one in reloading. Pay strict attention to only that and see everything you do. That will stop double charges, two bullets in a case, etc.
 
Easier said than done, Walkalong, especially when running a progressive press. The entire point of a progressive is speed. You have 4 or 5 things happening with every pull of the lever. Even if you are very careful and have an extremely low error rate, something will eventually go wrong (I work in medical device manufacturing, where quality control and paramount, and even we can't totally eliminate errors despite the millions we invest in it). The trick is to minimize the error rate, and have QC steps in place to detect them so you can fix them before they wind up in a firearm. Dillon and others have some very good "safety" innovations such as low powder warning devices, powder check dies, etc. I use the low powder sensor on my Dillons (all three of them). I don't use a powder check die because I load on 550's which don't have room for them. As a result, I make visual verification of powder charge a routine step of the loading process. I have lights and mirrors rigger to the presses to make it easier for me to see into the case as I am setting the bullet.
 
I've heard that "Flash over" is possible, it's when the flash from the primer does not ignite the low lying powder, and causes a squib.
 
Hey Padre
I have worked in some type of maintenance all my life with the last 12 years in a hospital and believe you me they can tear up a stainless steel bowling ball here. I know about equipment etc. My point is not to put speed in front of being carefull. That is my advise. If others want to run off a jillion rds per hour then more power to them, but they are increasing their odds of making a bad mistake. I leisurely load with my progressive and have never counted how many rds per hour I can produce. It is not important to me. Safety is far more important to me. Others may choose to do otherwise and I will not tell them what to do, only advise different so I can sleep sound at night knowing I gave advice I believe in with their safety in mind. Sounds like you are just as carefull, but manage to do it at a higher speed than I. :)
 
I don't believe in BIGFOOT, but Micheal Medved, who is far smarter than me does.

There could be contributors to this forum that know more than me about detonation and are smarter than me, but that is not going to get me to believe in detonation.
 
You are most welcome, Walkalong.

Clark...Detonation is the instant combustion of oxygen and gasoline in the combustion chamber of an automobile gasoline internal combustion engine. Also known as ignition(or spark) knock. Cause? too lean of a fuel mixture. Hot spot carbon in the combustion chamber, low octane or bad ignition timing.:evil:
 
The bottom line is that these stories ("squib load detonation" is the "scientific" term) have been circulating for decades and have never been "recreated in the laboratory".

Actually they have been recreated in the laboratory -- but what was recreated was not a "detonation." The inciden involved a 6.5x55 load that wrecked the rifle during load development. The load was duplicated on an instrumented pressure gun, and after several shots a double spike was seen -- the second spike being well in excess of allowable pressure.

The phenomenon appears to be a flash-over, as some have said, with the primer driving the bullet into the lede. The main charge goes off a split-second later and the pressure wave hits the bullet, which is now a bore obstruction.
 
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