Light powder load + big case= Kaboom?

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The problem with Google et al. is demonstrated by your results, ilbob. Especially when it comes to popular "urban legends" (or whatever you want to call them) is that a search engine will turn up a couple of zillion results of JoeBob writing up something he once heard his uncle's step-dad say on the subject.

I have to admit my mind is pretty closed on the topic of squib load detonation, but I'd still be very interested in any legitimate cites.
 
The most tested and explored version of "SEE" is the 38 special wadcutter load of 2.7 grains of bullseye and the 148 grain hollow base wadcutter bullet that was and is used heavily for centerfire bullseye shooting. Multiple loading labs tried to duplicate blowing up a S&W K-38 and/or Colt Officer Model Target/Special/Match revolver with this load. No one succeeded, and finally the ballisticians calculated that there simply isn't enough energy in 2.7 grains of Bullseye to damage the cylinder of either of these revolvers and it set this "SEE" theory to rest for a decade, but then it came back.
Now there are multiple versions, the half full case of slow rifle powder being the only one that is physically possible from an energy standpoint.
But they have proved that "detonation", which is where the combustion front in the powder actually travels faster than the burning rate of the powder (i.e. the powder isn't burning any longer, but actually exploding due to a shock wave traveling through the powder starting the chemical reaction of the powder); simply doesn't happen in smokeless powder made from nitrocellulose, even when it's laced with nitroglycerin (nitro can detonate instead of burn). This is actually very good for us, as it means that smokeless powder is a "propellant", and not an explosive like black powder or nitroglycerin with all of the extra federal regulation and licensing.
 
Ok, here is how I see it. I've done a lot of loading of squibs in all different calibers.

Modern smokeless powder's burn rate is a function of the grain or kernel geometry, and the pressure/temperature inside the cartridge as the powder burns.

Most of the ideas I've seen regarding how detonations happen are caused by the powder laying flat in the case, the primer going off, and igniting the powder just on the surface which quickly flashes, and rapidly ignites the rest of the powder. Thus causing over pressure, and detonation.

I won't say detonations are impossible, however, powders that have larger grain size are substantially less likely to result in possible detonation.

Currently, one "squib" load I use is 8grs of Hodgdon clay's in .308 giving me a subsonic round. I've modified it somewhat, and have been using 110gr FMJ bullets which gives me a little more velocity, but they stabilize much better with the lower velocity.
 
Toecutter quote:..."I've done a lot of loading of squibs in all different calibers.":what:

Aah...You deliberately load squibs? In all the years (20) I've been loading I have never loaded a squib or had a squib.

Detonation in a modern cartridge is nye-on to impossible for the reason that CMcdermott has stated. Modern powders just don't have the ability to ignite instantaniously. A squib in the barrel and a following shot? Highly possible.
 
Perhaps we could consider this response to an email asking about SEE I got as authoritative. The writer was not overjoyed when I asked him if I could post his response, but agreed I could do so.

Sure. It is a term correctly applied to the explosion which takes place
outside the confines of the barrels when sets of multiple naval guns are
fired simultaneously. The term originated pre WWI when black powder
was being used as the propellant in the new 14" guns on Battleships.
When all three guns in the turret were fired at once, there would be a
huge cloud of superheated smoke at the end of the muzzles. Upon contact
with air and in the presence of a spark from exiting powder bags, the
superheated cloud would ignite causing a very pronounced explosion. The
effects have been well documented in film from both WWI and WWII.

The term is sometimes used erroneously in regard to small caliber
firearms. It does not exist in these firearms.

But, it became a myth some years ago brought on by some long forgotten
gun writer who could not explain that he had made a mistake in his
loading or in his observation. It is occasionally represented as fact
by unknowing folks on the internet or by some writer repeating the lore
of previous writers.

Hope this helps. Should you have other questions, you can give me a
call to discuss it 800-622-4366.


Mike Daly
Customer Satisfaction Manager
The Hodgdon Powder Company Family of Propellants:
Hodgdon Smokeless Powders
Pyrodex Muzzleloading propellants
Triple Seven Muzzleloading Propellants
IMR Smokeless Powders
Winchester Smokeless Powders
 
Father Knows Best,

Can you put up some photos of your mirror and lights setup for the 550. I have a big flourescent light over my work bench, but with longer cartridges like the 44 mag and 357 and even 38 spl. that is not enough for me to see the powder without slowing my loading rate. I have been thinking about a light or mirrors mounted on the press somehow. I would love to see what you have come up with.
 
I have a small adjustable inspection mirror clamped to the press, and a standard swing-arm desk lamp for task lighting. I'll see if I can get pictures this weekend, but it's nothing fancy or unusual.
 
I'm leery of people who categorically state something is impossible based on their understanding of the relevant science. I'm an engineer. I'm familiar with the development process. There is a lot more trial and error at work than most people would believe, especially in complex products such as smokeless powder. The chemistry and physics are well understood at the basic level, but the subtle interactions of all the variables are too difficult to model reliably, no matter how many partial differential equations you throw at them. That's why loads are developed with test barrels instead of calculated. And that's why I place little faith in authoritative responses to the issue of squib detonation.

I do believe, if they exist, they are rare. I'd be inclined to say that most reports of detonation are the result of using light loads of faster powder that can be double or triple charged without noticing, or the preceding light load or "primer only" load that sticks a bullet in the barrel and the next round causes the kaboom, or using pistol powder instead of rifle powder. But that doesn't mean that detonation can't occur under any circumstance.

The history of science is filled with examples of people making great discoveries by observing unusual and unexpected phenomena, keeping an open mind, believing what they see, and then explaining that rare phenomenon. A closed mind will miss these rare events and will not allow our understanding to increase beyond what is already known. It took the medical community a decade to finally believe that H. pylori bacteria cause most ulcers. The two researchers were derided for years because their observation didn't fit the current dogma, but they recently received a Nobel Prize in Medicine for that research, and antibiotics CURE ulcers now, instead of the expensive and mostly ineffective treatment that was previously available.

One reason there may not be lab data supporting detonation is that this rare phenomenon is not something that people are trying to create. They're busy developing practical loads, not researching highly unusual scenarios. I read a lot of "despite a lot of trying..." statements on the internet, but who tried to create detonations? When? How did they try? Got a reference to cite to back up your opinion? Internet rumors work both ways, pro detonation, and anti detonation.

I personally doubt the theory of the primer flashing over the top of a squib load and igniting the large top surface. I still doubt that would create a sufficient overpressure. I also doubt the theory that the over flash lodges a bullet and the pressure spikes due to the bore obstruction. I doubt there is that much more static friction from a stationary bullet, compared to the dynamic friction of a bullet moving in the bore. But I'm not ready to say these aren't happening, because it's a complex situation and I don't understand the details well enough to categorically say it's impossible.

My favorite theory that could explain detonation is a suspended powder charge. No, it has nothing to do with the oxygen in the case. That's not what I'm saying, so don't try to refute it based on the fact that gunpowder already contains all the oxygen needed for combustion. I think it's possible that under rare circumstances, recoil could suspend a fine powder charge, fairly evenly distributed inside the case. The primer might be able to ignite a lot more of the powder at once, which could cause a much faster pressure spike and a lot of radiant energy flashing through the suspended powder. The burn rate is normally a function of pressure and temperature, but the powder density is largely moderating the heat transfer via conduction and radiation. Fine powder has a lot of surface area per volume, and if it was suspended inside the case with space around the small powder particles for radiant energy to propagate from particle to particle at the speed of light, it seems reasonable that the powder could detonate, or the burn rate would be so extreme that the effects are similar.

Powders are formulated to tune the burn rate, using chemicals that coat the powders, by changing the size and shape of the particles, etc. But this burn rate is still very nonlinear with pressure and temperature, and all bets are off if the powder is not burning with the grains touching each other, as is the assumption when it was developed.

Ever notice that the most accurate loads are often achieved with slower powder that fills the case or is slightly compressed? I think this is because the primer ignition and subsequent burning is more repeatable, because there is less variation in the density of the burning powder. Perhaps detonation is an extreme example of this variation, where the burn rate reaches a runaway condition. We know there are nonlinearities in burn rates in the normal loads we shoot. Is it so far fetched to believe that there is a much more severe nonlinearity well outside the range of normal loads?

The trick is, there needs to be enough powder that it would have enough energy to kaboom a chamber if detonated at once, but a small enough load of powder that it could be suspended in low enough density to flash detonate. Particle size and shape would have a lot to do with it, as would chemical composition.

Smokeless powder is formulated to burn and not explode. But it's made of nitrocellulose (single base) or nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin (double base). Nitrocellulose is a low explosive. Low explosives normally do not detonate but can detonate when triggered by high explosives. Nitroglycerin is one of the most powerful high explosives. These two explosives are formulated into double base smokeless powder to make them propellants which burn rapidly but not explode. Under unusual circumstances, it's reasonable to assume they can revert to their original nature as explosives, despite the BELIEFS of reloaders to the contrary. Keep repeating the dogma. Smokeless powders don't explode. Or recognize that statement as generally true for practical purposes, but not necessarily true in unusual circumstances far outside the range for which these products were developed.

Newtonian physics explained the macroscopic world, but there were oddities it didn't explain at a smaller scale. These rare events at our macroscopic level led to quantum physics, and now we have lasers and nuclear power plants and nuclear bombs. There is great benefit to paying attention to the rare events. Quantum physics is unbelievably "Alice Through The Looking Glass" weird to humans, and seems extremely unlikely. But it's a fact. It's part of physics. Just because you don't understand something, doesn't make it any less true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosive
 
First of all, no one has shown any evidence of detonation -- a shattered gun that could be put back together like a jigsaw puzzle. All the so-called detonation events result in a gun which is stretched and distorted before the steel yields -- which is the signature of high pressure.

And again, at least one such event has been duplicated in the lab -- a hang-fire where the primer drove the bullet into the lede before the powder ignited.
 
To quote .38 Special,

"Cite, please. "

Simply repeating it doesn't make it true.

It's one thing to discuss theories. It's another to refute a theory based on evidence. The latter actually requires the evidence.
 
I gave a cite on this last year. Do I have to look it up all over again?

There is no evidence of any "detonation" effect -- a detonation is a chemical reaction propagated by a shockwave, while deflagration is a chemical reaction propagated by burning. The detonation signature is shattered metal -- as if it were glass. High pressure, on the other hand, stretches the metal like modling clay before it yields.

There are no shattered guns from light charges, only guns that show the effect of extremely high pressure.
 
Here is the original Handloader article by Larry Gibson

Handloader- readers have doubtless heard of a term called secondary explosion effect (S.E.E.). It is a theory that attempts to explain the catastrophic failure of some rifles while firing seemingly reasonable handloads or reduced loads using slow-burning powders. Theories have been offered and debated in these pages and elsewhere, but they have been just that, theories, because no one has been able to reproduce effects under laboratory conditions. The purpose here is not to debate S.E.E. but rather to report on a specific incident and the results of tests done to discover the cause of catastrophic failure.

One of the great problems with attempting to theorize on the cause of catastrophic failures is that we must do so after the fact. We have the corpse, usually with some parts missing and must try to figure out what went wrong. Learned theories are offered, sometimes conflicting, and we end up with a bunch of folks shouting in print, 'You're wrong.' "No, you’re wrong." Since the event they're arguing about what without benefit of instrumentation, either one could be right. The events I describe here represent the first instance of an event produced under controlled laboratory conditions and documented on industry standard pressure measuring equipment that provides a plausible explanation offered to explain S.E.E.

The following is simple. It goes all the way back to Shooting 101 where we learned that bore obstructions blow up guns. There are no explosions, no mysterious wave amplifications; it's just a case of several factors, combining in worst case conditions to create a bore obstruction with the bullet.

In early 1989 a major manufacturer began development of a load for the 6.5x55mm Swedish that was to be added to their product line. Development was uneventful and all work was done using the copper crusher pressure measuring system, for there were no standards established for piezo-electric pressure measurement in the 6.5x55mm. The copper crusher method of pressure measurement has been with us for generations, but it is not without its limitations. The results obtained are not true "maximum" pressures, and it provides only a single data point. There is no way that one can deduce what is happening during the period the powder is burning, nor can one see other significant ballistic events.

A quantity of ammunition was loaded using a relatively slow-burning, non-canister propellant with a 140-grain bullet. After load development in ammunition manufacturer’s pressure guns, it is common practice to function test ammunition in a variety of available rifles to ensure satisfactory performance before it is released for sale to the public.

As function testing of the 6.5x55mm ammunition was begun using Swedish Mauser rifles, they noticed some of the same signs of excess pressure every handloader is taught. to look for - flattened primers, enlarged primer pockets and heavy bolt lift. All the ammunition fired in the pressure gun had been perfectly acceptable, but SAAMI test barrels and chambers are made to tightly controlled specifications so the first supposition was that some element within the test gun was contributing to high pressures. Then a "spontaneous disassembly" occurred that destroyed the action but left the barrel undamaged. The bore was clear and showed no bulges. It was immediately identified as a high pressures failure and an investigation was begun. The barrel from the wrecked Mauser action was fitted with a collar that allowed it to be mounted in a universal receiver, and an industry standard conformal piezoelectric transducer was installed. Another test was performed using the Oehler Model 82 piezoelectric pressure measuring system equipped with a trace hold oscilloscope.

(Fig !)
round pressure (psi) velocity (fps)
1 48,820 2,601
2 53,849 2,662
3 57,609 2,708
4 57,999 2,720
5 54,093 2,687
6 58,634 2,731
7 62,150 2,754
8 82,120 2,875

Pressure tests are commonly done with a 10-round string and as you can see from the chart, pressures increased very gradually on rounds I through 4. At the fifth shot, pressure dropped and then continued to increase until, at the eighth shot, pressure, went to 82,120 psi; and the technician wisely stopped the test. The raw data was then used to prepare additional graphs (fig. 1) which show that, after ignition, pressures dropped momentarily to near zero on the graph before beginning to rise again.

To interpret this data we have to first understand the ground rules applicable to pressure testing with conformal transducers. The key term here is 'offset" which relates, primarily, to the specific cartridge and the brass used therein and must be determined for each transducer and lot of brass. The offset is the amount of pressure required to obturate the case to the chamber and begin to exert pressure upon the transducer. In this case the offset was 3,800 psi so when we look at the time/pressure curves produced in the test; we must understand that we are not actually seeing pressures below the level of the offset. There is a distinct dip in the curve, however, shortly after the pressure begins to rise when it drops to a level somewhere at or below the offset pressure. All we can say for sure is that, at this point, the pressure is <3,800 psi. Engineers calculated that for the specific bullet being used it would take pressure of at least 5,000 psi just to keep the bullet moving.

As I said, there are a number of variables at work here, but the main culprit is a very long leade or throat erosion. It takes relatively little pressure to eject the bullet from the cartridge case (de-bullet), which produces a significant increase in volume. Unless the rate of gas production is fast enough to keep up with the increase in volume, pressure must drop. The simple equation is PIVI=P2V' where P = pressure and V = volume. It is helpful in considering the phenomena reported here to view the rifle barrel and chamber as a cylinder whose volume is determined by the position of the bullet at any given point in time. If the bullet is moving, the volume is continuously increasing until the bullet exits the barrel.

If P2 is at or below the pressure required to keep the bullet moving it must stop. Then we run into our old friend inertia. Bodies at rest tend to remain at rest, but all the powder burning behind the resting bullet doesn't know about that. It keeps burning and pressure rises. Sometimes we get lucky and the bullet starts to move and relieve some of that pressure, but in a worst case of a rough bore and/or soft bullet it doesn't, and pressure continues to build until something else lets go. Most of the time this will occur around the primer pocket and gas will be released through the flash hole, but we're talking about events that are taking place quickly (milliseconds); and if pressure rises at a rate faster than it is being relieved, a catastrophic failure is inevitable It has been theorized that many 'accidents" represent a combination of effects which combine, in worst case conditions, to produce a catastrophic failure. Robert Greenleaf (Rifle No. 146) presents convincing evidence to show that conditions rarely remain the same, and the condition of the barrel and throat combined with different bullet characteristics can produce markedly different pressure levels for the same load. This is certainly seen in this data where a series of eight shots of the same ammunition delivered pressures ranging, and steadily increasing, from 48,820 psi up to 82,120 psi, at which point the test was stopped. We can, from looking at this test data, presume that all rounds (except perhaps the first) displayed some degree of temporary bore obstruction, but that the bullet was blown out of the barrel. Fortunately universal receivers are capable of containing considerable pressures, and it is certainly possible that the pressure generated by the last shot would have wrecked a standard rifle.

One factor that cannot be accurately measured with this data is the possible contribution of fouling from the bullet itself. It seems reasonable to assume that some accumulated fouling was blown out on the fourth shot, which accounts for the drop in pressure at shot No. 5.

When the engineers were able to examine and expand the time/pressure curves produced during this test, it became obvious that each shot showed a pronounced drop in pressure very early in the ignition/burning cycle and, on the shot where the pressure reached 82,120 psi, it dropped to the baseline before resuming a climb to the stratosphere. It would be easy to think that the fire went out, but a more reasonable explanation is that the burning rate of the powder became even slower. We know that pressure is a major component of the burning rate of any powder, and it depends upon adequate pressure levels being reached and maintained. In fact, what is shown in this case is that the amount of gas being generated was not sufficient to keep the bullet moving. If pressures drop below some optimum level, burning slows down and is often incomplete. Of course there will always be a quantity of unburned powder from any shot, and this observation has led to some of the conclusions regarding S.E.E.

In order for the pressure to rise to catastrophic proportions some other adverse conditions must also be present. These involve the cartridge case, the bullet, chamber and barrel and need to be discussed individually.

Bullet pull: We know that an adequate amount of tension between the case neck and bullet is a prerequisite for uniform combustion. This term, called bullet pull, is independent of the firearm and is routinely measured in the factories. Crimps may or may not be used to increase bullet pull, but most centerfire rifle cartridges depend primarily on tension between the case and bullet. If you've ever committed the sin of firing a cartridge into which you have neglected to dispense powder, you know that the primer alone is perfectly capable of propelling the bullet several inches down the barrel. Pressure generated by a primer alone can be as much as 4,000 psi in a conventional centerfire rifle cartridge; so it is certainly possible, in a normal round, for the primer impulse alone to be sufficient to get the bullet moving before little if any pressure has been generated by the powder charge.

Chamber: In the area of the case neck there must always be some clearance between the case and the chamber wall, but if this area is too large there is little resistance and the bullet can be released with very little pres sure behind it.

Condition of the barrel and throat: The impact of conditions within the chamber and throat are difficult for the handloader to analyze, and a throat that appears normal under cursory inspection may be revealed to be rough and irregular when seen through a bore scope. Greenleaf's report (Rifle No. 146) details how pressure increased as the number of rounds fired through a test barrel grew larger. This can only be attributable to a deterioration of the throat and leade on that particular barrel. In this instance SAAMI standard barrels were used and showed no irregularities, and it was only when the same ammunition was fired in a 'field' barrel with more generous tolerances and wear in these areas that problems were seen.

Bullet hardness and stiffness: The shape and construction of the specific bullet used can be a major factor in the levels of pressure developed by any given load. Bullets undergo some degree of deformation as they enter the bore, and the force required for them to engrave the rifling and obturate to bore dimensions can vary considerably.

Temperature: We know that pressures tend to increase as the barrel heats up, and a round that produces perfectly normal pressures from a cold barrel might show signs of excess pressure when the barrel is hot.

Work presented here answers questions. Some of the findings support theories offered to explain S.E.E. some don't. We haven't, for example, seen any evidence to indicate that there is ever an explosion, and many authorities doubt that there is. Perhaps what we need is a better name. Taken to its most basic component, what we have is that most fundamental cause of catastrophic failures: a bore obstruction. The difference here is that the offender is the bullet itself effect rather than some external source is both predictable and reproducible in the light of this new evidence, but it is highly dependent upon a combination of factors that produce disastrous results. If one or more is absent, everything will probably turn out fine; but when all come together, pressures rise and, sooner or later, sooner or later, something will fail. While it would appear that slow-burning powders contribute significantly, until now we didn't exactly know what to look for. I think it's at least theoretically possible for a bullet to stop in a barrel if the other conditions are bad enough with propellants other than the slower grades.

Have you ever fired a load that you had used often and suddenly gotten signs of excess pressure such as difficult bolt lift or flattened primers, and then fired another that seemed perfectly normal? I think this happens with some frequency, and our normal recourse is to shrug our shoulders and also be a bright red flag waving in keep on shooting; h6wever, this could front of our nose that is telling us that something is wrong. In the light of these findings, it could be telling us that a bullet did a stutter step before it went on out the barrel. The question then becomes what should we do about it. My first suggestion would be a careful investigation of the condition of the bore, especially the throat or leade to see if there is any erosion or roughness followed by thorough cleaning. A chamber cast might be in order to get precise measurements. If the barrel shows obvious signs of wear or throat erosion, the cure is obviously to replace it or set it back and rechamber. If the barrel appears to be within specifications, however, a change of bullet or propellant may be enough to solve the problem. The importance of this information is that it explains, with laboratory documentation, what can happen when the wheels fall off in the worst way. It seems like such a reasonable answer to many of the mysterious ka-booms that good reloaders have had with good handloads, and it is something we all need to keep in the back of our minds in case we encounter something out of the ordinary. While the data here was generated using the 6.5x55 Swedish cartridge, the observations are not specific to that round. They could occur with almost anything.

My emphasis.

SEE has indeed been duplicated in the laboratory. It is a phenomenon where there is an initial pressure spike, a dropoff and a final major spike. This is consistent with the bullet being driven into the lede, and followed by ignition of the powder,

There is no evidence of detonation.
 
Liberty4Ever, you make some good points. There's an old axiom, however, which states that it is impossible to prove a negative. In other words, it is impossible to prove that something can NOT happen, because anyone can come up with some theory of a way it MIGHT happen and no possible proof can account for all potential hypothetical theories.

That's another way of saying that, yes, you are right that no one has proven it is impossible, but so what? The burden of proof here is not on the nay-sayers, it is on those who claim that these kinds of "detonations" can and do occur. It is up to them to provide evidence of them and the mechanism by which they occur if they expect the rest of us to accept their theory despite all the scientific knowledge available that suggests such events are impossible. It is Occam's Razor at work, i.e., "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one." The simplest explanation in these cases is that there was an inadvertent double or triple charge, or a barrel obstruction, not that some heretofore unknown and unobservable sequence of events took place.

Science requires that those proposing a new paradigm, i.e., a hypothesis that provides an alternative explanation of observed phenomena, produce data in support of that paradigm that results from tesing the hypothesis in a controlled and reproducible environment. If that data supports the hypothesis, then other independent researchers will attempt to replicate the results. If multiple independent researchers replicate the results, they will be accepted and the new paradigm takes hold.

Here, all we have is some people claiming that "detonation" occurred because they said so, and they don't believe it was due to their own errors in loading or due to a squib or other barrel obstruction. The supposed detonation events have never occurred in a controlled setting under reproducible circumstances. We've heard that some people have tried to induce detonations under controlled circumstances but without success. You complain that no citation is given to those attempts. So what? The burden is on the people who are advancing the hypothesis to produce in support of it, not on those who question it to disprove it in the complete absence of any data.

So I will grudgingly admit that "anything is possible." I'm not a believe, however, and I won't be until someone can produce these sorts of "detonations" reliably and repeatedly under controlled conditions. Until then, it's just a crackpot theory.
 
Do I have to look it up all over again?

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. I think that's fair.

Should I do the research to validate your claim?


I also do not believe that analyzing metal fragments to determine deflagration vs. explosion is as cut and dried as you're depicting it to be. The difference is a subsonic vs. supersonic pressure wave. In practice, the wave velocity varies over a wide range. It is not the case that burning occurs at one rate and explosions occur at a much higher rate. The differene between subsonic and supersonic isn't arbitrary. There is a fundamental difference between the two, but there is also a gradient that extends all the way from the slowest burning powders to the fasted nitrogrlycerin explosion. Fill a rifle case with fast pistol powder and the metal pieces will have sharp edges and little signs of plastic deformation. I think they'll be difficult to distinguish from the results of an explosion, even though it was "only" a rapid burning.
 
Liberty4Ever said:
The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
I agree, and that's the point I was making. The "claim", however, is that "detonation" is a real phenomenon. The burden of proof is on those who advance that claim.

Otherwise, it would be like asking someone to prove that human beings do not spontaneously combust. How can you prove that? You can't. All available evidence suggests it is highly improbably, if not impossible. It is up to those who believe in spontaneous human combustion to produce the proof.
 
Father Knows Best,

I think we're both skeptical, and that's good. The difference is, you seem to consider this unproven theory as a "crackpot theory".

Occam's Razor is exactly the reason I believe what I do. I think most of the kabooms are the result of mistakes that were made and have explanations within the current understanding. We know that a full case of pistol powder can kabom a rifle. We can prove it by doing it. But I also believe it's reasonable that combustion can be fast enough with suspended powder (whether it's an actual detonation or not) to result in a catastrophic chamber failure.

A crackpot theory would be aliens or the New World Order being responsible. But when explosives are moderated to make them propellants under normal circumstances, it's not unreasonable to think they could function as explosives under unusual and unforeseen circumstances.

I do agree that the burden of proof is on the person claiming that detonations can occur. Unfortunately, if they occur, they seem to be so rare that they are generally written off as reloading mistakes, and inasmuch as they would occur in light loads that are not in the published load charts, that's somewhat fair to say.

Powder manufacturers are not likely to expend a lot of research money to prove that their product is unsafe if used in some unusual manner. That's not how science works, and it certainly isn't how business works. individuals obviously don't have the resources to conduct the research needed to prove that some light loads can sometimes cause extremely high pressure spikes.

Before the microscope, people didn't know that microbes they couldn't see could kill them. Pasteur proved otherwise. People didn't believe that radiation they couldn't see, or hear, or smell, or feel could kill them. Then the Curies experimented with radiation and Marie eventually died from radiation exposure.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that detonation does happen. I admit I don't have the data to make such a claim. However, some anecdotal evidence and sound understanding of the science indicates it might happen. Until this is resolved, I think it's prudent to be careful.

I'm uncomfortable believing something in the absence of proof, but I'm also uncomfortable ignoring a good theory that explains a dangerous phenomenon because it hasn't been completely and thoroughly proved.

it may be impossible to prove that detonations can never occur under any circumstances, but it is possible to prove within a reasonable doubt that squib charge detonation is extremely unlikely. So far, there is no proof on either side. Until there is, I choose to be careful, just as I avoid walking around in lightning storms. It's unlikely I'd be struck by lightning, but it's a chance I don't wish to take.
 
However, some anecdotal evidence and sound understanding of the science indicates it might happen. Until this is resolved, I think it's prudent to be careful.

Big difference between sound understanding of the science and wild speculation. And it is not always that easy to tell the difference. It is pretty simple for a word-smith to put the right words together to make anything sound plausible, regardless of how improbable.
 
Liberty4Ever,

Fair enough. I shouldn't have used the term "crackpot", and I won't claim that detonation is "impossible." Until such time as it has been reliably reproduced in a controlled environment, I will remain a non-believer. I will repeatedly remind those who advance the theory, however, that the burden is on them to produce evidence in support of it.
 
.38 Special said:
Cite, please.

This exact same topic came up about 2 years ago to the day on TFL. As here, there was much conjecture as to what actually happens.

I had read an article by Charles E. Petty on the subject in Handloader Magazine. Please see my post #8 in the following thread for the magazine details:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163195

This is not necessarily a valid scientific proof, just more food for thought on the topic.
 
Liberty4ever I will also try to convince you that being an Engineer is not all encompassing and in the absolute know. As a Master Marine/industrial Diesel Machanic (retired) I have had to straighten out tooo many engineers design errors. Now don't get to irritated as I have made a few mistakes too. But few have made the market...I'm with Father Knows Best on this...:)
 
Yep. The highly paid Engineers design it. It gets put in by professionals, and then lowly mechanics like me make it work. :neener:
 
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