likelihood of defects in a brand-new S&W?

[old lady new shooter]

In the 686 vs GP100 thread, a link was posted to "The Dark Side of Smith & Wesson" at http://www.chuckhawks.com/smith-wesson_dark.htm .

The part describing what was allegedly found on examination of new S&W revolvers (although apparently some time ago) was pretty horrifying. While I am leaning toward a 686 Plus, about which the only complaint in the article was that the design is derivative, someone else also recently warned me that even a new revolver can have flaws and should be examined.

No way am I even remotely qualified to examine a firearm to determine whether it has any imperfections.

I'd like to hear what folks here think about the likelihood of defects in a brand-new S&W, and if non-zero, how a first-time buyer could protect against this.

 

[stubbicatt]

I recently purchased a Model 22-4 in which the chambers or charging holes in the cylinder were all cut too small, and two were oblong. How one can do that with a round reamer I do not understand. I had the issues rectified by an excellent gunsmith.

I could not have detected these flaws in a gun store. I suppose I could have sent it back to S&W, but chose to have someone I trust do it right. At my expense. --There is no way I will ever get my money back out of this piece, so it is a good thing I like it and shoot it frequently!

I had a Model 19 that had a similar defect in the chambers. It had .357 chamber mouths and a .358 barrel. Additionally, the frame stretched after some time and 357 magnum loads, and was returned to the factory twice to reset the barrel/cylinder gap.

To my way of seeing things, nobody makes a perfect firearm. I still like my S&W revolvers, and will likely buy more of them. But anymore, any firearm I have purchased, with few exceptions, since the 1990s has had to have issues addressed. After years of "raging against the machine" I have come to accept that this is just the way it is anymore. This acceptance has done wonders for my blood pressure.

I have not had issues with CZ products or Uberti, though the internet is replete with contrary examples.

As far as ChuckHawk's complaint of derivative designs, near as I can see, every manufacturer has used the Roland White patent in their cartridge revolvers, and everyone has copied Gaston Glock's striker firing mechanism, and Glock arguably copied the HK polymer frame concept. Ideas from across the industry are combined to "build a better mousetrap."

To sum it up, I guess my advice is to budget an additional $350 or so for potential gunsmith services, and if you find you don't need them, you come out ahead.

 

[Drail]

Consider buying an older used S&W. They were much better made guns.

 

[RealGun]

In this post-industrial America it is rare for a company to live up to any reputation established in an earlier time. All (7) of my new S&W guns have had at least one trip to the gunsmith, although some were there only to have the ILS removed and plugged. I have no plan to buy any more, finding more satisfaction in owning older, used guns.

I'd like to hear what folks here think about the likelihood of defects in a brand-new S&W, and if non-zero, how a first-time buyer could protect against this.

No guarantees, except S&W will probably fix it.

 

[moxie]

I've got a lot of different makes of handguns, including S&Ws. I've never had to send one back to the factory or have one worked on.

The odds are in your favor that your gun will be fine.

The safest route for you is to buy your gun from a local gun shop and ask them to check it out for you as part of the deal. Many gun shops will gladly do that. If they find a problem they'll take care of it or send it back. Many also will show you how to use the gun, at the range, and care for it too.

 

[RealGun]

I've got a lot of different makes of handguns, including S&Ws. I've never had to send one back to the factory or have one worked on.

Bought any in recent years? How am I so unlucky by comparison, especially with Ruger, Charter Arms, and Taurus? I think my latest was the 625 Performance Center with a rough forcing cone that was way off axis. So much for a special grade model.

 

[DPris]

The odds are in your favor as far as getting a defect-free Smith goes, but in recent years the number of guns shipped out with either minor or major flaws has increased with both Smith and Ruger.

Those can run from minor cosmetic issues to minor/major functional issues.
That still involves a relatively low percentage, but that percentage appears to be higher than it used to be.
Denis

 

[Old Fuff]

I have many decades of experience with S&W (and for that matter, Ruger and Colt) handguns. I have noticed, like DPris that quality has slipped recently, but that has been true of other times when we experienced "panic production," meaning extraordinary demand during periods of crisis of one kind of another.

On the part of manufactures, this means sharply expanding production and sometimes hiring less experienced workers. Also in terms of numbers fewer examples may not be inspected, and tool replacement (think chambering reamers as an example) aren't changed as soon as they should be. Cutting bits and drills may be run at higher RPM's.

This may or may not be an issue so far as defects are concerned, and are not relegated to any specific manufacturer. Some are merely cosmetic.

It now appears that the recent sales of some firearms is slowing to a more "old normal" level, and if my personal experience is any indicator, problems associated with the recent past will decline.

As for buying from the used market: Check the serial number to see if was made during a panic period or not. In and of itself, older doesn't guarantee flawless construction.

When or if you have the misfortune to get a lemon (which isn't common) keep in mind that companies such a S&W, Ruger and Colt have an excellent reputation for making thing right.

 

[moxie]

"Bought any in recent years?"

Yup, I've bought a Smith and a Ruger in the last few years, and helped a buddy buy another Smith. No problems with any of them. Luck? I go through them with a fine tooth comb before I accept delivery. Haven't had to reject any though. The OP can't do this so needs to depend on her LGS.

The OP should be able to buy a new gun with confidence. But still a good idea to establish a good relationship with an LGS who can assist if needed. This is especially wise for a new shooter/first-time buyer.

 

[RealGun]

"Bought any in recent years?"

Yup, I've bought a Smith and a Ruger in the last few years,

Since only S&W is in question here, you are basing your position on a sample of one gun during a time period that might represent the current situation. You had some good fortune, stories about which never belie the reports of others.

Having the opportunity to inspect a gun before buying is a tough one, because the desired model is not often available locally, special orders are prepaid, and returning a gun is not an option. You get to send it to the manufacturer but do not have the option of walking away with your money.

 

[moxie]

I won't buy a gun if I don't have the opportunity to inspect it before I accept it. Seems like a good policy. Why pay $$ for something before you get a chance to even look at it?

I said I bought a Smith but also helped a friend buy one. Inspected his and tried it out before he accepted it. And you mentioned Ruger, and others, in addition to S&W.

All of which indicates the OP should contact a local gun shop and buy from stock on hand.

 

[DPris]

I've had several of both company's new products here in the past ten years, and I've run across several goofs, minor to not-so-minor, with both.
Denis

 

[Iggy]

I've had/have a lot of S&Ws and I've never had a problem.. Admittedly they are all older models.

I will add this, Chuck Hawks has had a hate going with S&W for years.. I don't have any idea of the source of his dislike, but keep that in mind when you read his stuff.

 

[glocking26]

The odds of getting a S+W revolver that's 98% right out of the box is about 65%..... 100% never happen. Even there performance Center guns is about 90% Believe me I speak from experience I sent three back within the last year. Their quality control or should I say lack of sucks!

 

[Jim K]

Some people have a pure, unadulterated hatred of S&W and their products based on what they saw as the company's "surrender" to the Clinton administration. That, not supposed failures, is the reason for hatred of the S&W internal lock. (And most reports of lock failures have turned out to be lies, spread by the same folks.)

Jim

 

[mnrivrat]

My brother purchased a Model 69 earlier this year. It was a mess ,and when sent back some of the replacement parts included the cyclinder, the hammer, and the trigger.

Yes, S&W can put out a POS product . It does not happen on a steady or regular basis I am told, but like anythjing else a bad one comes along at least once in awhile.

Odd's are in your favor however, and S&W does have a pretty good rep for making things right if you happen to have a problem.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Thanks everybody.

Thanks to all for sharing your experiences and advice.

The advice to make inspection (and handling return to S&W for fixing if necessary) part of the deal sounds like the best way to go. As a result, I changed my plan of which range/gun store to use.

This isn't gonna stop me from hoping I get a perfect one out of the box, but at least I won't freak out if I don't.

 

[ku4hx]

Likelihood? Very low. Considering the number of guns sold in this country, the number of complaints you read on forums are statistically insignificant.

 

[moxie]

old lady,

Yup, it's just smart shopping, like anything else.

 

[RealGun]

Yup, it's just smart shopping, like anything else.

How far does one travel to inspect the model not found locally, or does one just forget it? I am not ready to accept that buying online, auction for example, is foolish. There is risk, of course, but some guns are just not going to be found in local stores.

 

[18DAI]

Extremely likely. In fact, the current company posing as S&W should include a return shipping label in the boxes of their current production guns.

Out of 4 brand new S&W revolvers at my LGS, 3 had clocked barrels and the one that didn't had a HUGE barrel cylinder gap. If you want a second opinion, they are ugly too.

 

[moxie]

Real Gun,

That's a decision one has to make for oneself. I never said buying online or at auction was foolish. But there are attendant risks in doing so. If you're willing to accept those risks, then great. But if you do there's not much point in complaining about it if something goes wrong. You know that as an experienced shooter. We're dealing here with a newbie that needs help. Her best and safest bet is to hook up with a good brick and mortar LGS.

 

[RealGun]

Her best and safest bet is to hook up with a good brick and mortar LGS.

...if they have the gun she wants and can examine.

 

[old lady new shooter]

...if they have the gun she wants and can examine.

No way am I buying any model I don't first try shooting. But the one I actually buy I want to be new in the box.

 

[Jim K]

"No way am I buying any model I don't first try shooting. But the one I actually buy I want to be new in the box."

A little problem there. No shop is going to let folks shoot a new revolver; it would then be a used gun. And if you were to test a new gun and liked it, you wouldn't buy it because then it wouldn't be new in the box.

Jim