1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
T'was asked on another thread:
Let's hear some of the other reasons besides the lighter spring to prevent the problem of "limpwristing"...if you don't mind?
______________________
I thought that it might be better served to start a new thread on the question, since the subject comes up often.
Limp-wrist malfunctions are most often caused by overspringing the slide,
and most of the experts will advise you to use the heaviest spring that will allow slidelock with the gun held loosely. The line of thought is that it
proves that you are getting full slide travel...but even if it locks, you may not be getting full travel. Note that the 5-inch 1911's full travel puts it
well past the point of slidelock...and even the shorter variants overtravel a little past that point. Even so...full rearward slide travel is only part of the
equation. There's also the matter of rebound. Even if a recoil spring allows
full travel, it changes the amount of impact force between slide, recoil guide rod flange, and frame. Steel has a certain amount of bounce when
impacted by another piece of steel. In the case of an autopistol, this
bounce...or rebound...plays a fairly important role in jump-starting the
slide back toward its return to battery.
Bear this in mind:
>Whenever a spring rate is changed, it has an effect on the cycle timing of the sprung part.<
____________________
This leads into the other aspect of the limp-grip question. Full slide travel rearward is only half the function. It also must return to battery. The dynamics of the cycle change in several ways between a firm grip and a loose grip...and inertia is the cause of these changes...or rather, the
different inertial response of the pistol when the grip changes. Gripped loosely, the pistol tends to move around more in several directions than when gripped firmly. If we accept that everything means SOMEthing, we can see how movement during the recoil/return to battery cycle can affect
how the pistol feeds...and reliable feeding is just as important to reliability
as extraction and ejection.
The recoil spring carries the potential for having the most effect, simply because it works both ways. Many times, whenever a return to battery failure is noted, I hear the advice to go up on the recoil spring a notch
to a heavier spring...but sometimes that can work against you in several ways. Not only does it make the pistol more grip-sensitive for reliable
ejection...if a jam occurs at the barrel throat or feed ramp, it can jam the gun more solidly. An example is a wedge doorstop. If you push it under the door with your hand, it's easier to remove than if you pound it in place with a hammer.
Other aspects of reliable feeding are:
Extractor tension...Feed ramp geometry and finish...Barrel throat geometry and finish..Chamber dimensions, geometry and finish...Breechface geometry, dimension and finish...and one of the more important...slide to frame fit and smoothness of movement. If these things are optimized, gripping the pistol loosely will have little effect of the reliability. if they aren't...a loose grip can serve to bring the cycle to a halt in mid-step, regardless of the recoil spring tension.
While I'm a proponent of the "Right, not Tight" school of thought...if the frame and slide are too loosely fitted, there can be just as many functional issues as when it's too tight. The slide wobbles as it travels, and it doesn't pick up the cartridge at the same point for each cycle. So consistency is another key. The slide needs to track fairly straight so that the round will feed straight. The vertical play in the slide is more critical than the side-play. The gun will tolerate looseness in the horizontal plane much better than in the vertical because the feed ramp and barrel throat forces the round to move upward at an angle and break over to horizontal in order to enter the chamber. If the slide has excessive play in the vertical plane, it
changes the angle of the round as it strips it from the magazine. Add a
loose grip, and things can go haywire quickly.
Part of my litmus test for reliability is to assemble the slide, barrel, and bushing on the bare frame and tilt the gun up and down at a 45 degree angle. The slide and barrel have to got into battery and lockup under gravity alone...and it must unlock and travel to the rear under gravity
with the rails dry. It has to pass the test 10 times in a row.
The second part is that the gun must run through 2 full magazines while
gripped as loosely as i can hold it without dropping it. This entails cradling
the pistol on top of my hand, with my index finger and the web of my thumb alone...finger on the trigger at the second distal joint...wrist broken on two planes. The pistol has to fire to slidelock, and it has to feed and return to battery every time.
The third part of the test is that the gun must function while held upside down in one hand. For this test, I load two rounds per magazine...in the interest of safety...for three magazines.
During part 4, the gun is assembled with a full-length guide rod but without the spring and plug. A full magazine of ball is locked in, and the slide is pushed into battery with the tip of one finger pushing it briskly. if my finger hyper-extends past the point of comfort inorder to push the slide to battery, the gun needs more work.
Part 5 entails magazine/ammo combinations. The gun is tested with the magazines that will be used with it, with the chosen ammo. The first four tests proved the gun...The fifth proves the magazines and ammunition, and the magazines then become proprietary to that gun. If the gun and magazines prove, they are fit for carry.
Why so much trouble and effort for a reliability function test? One is that I'm anal-retentive about reliability. That part of it was the result of some experience. The other is that, you can't bet on being able to obtain a solid grip on the gun if you actually have to use it. In fact, if the situation goes suddenly from dangerous to deadly...which those kinds of things usually do...you probably WON'T get that grip until you've had time to think about it. At that point, it may be too late for the gun to be of any help. Time frames in deadly confrontations are usually measured in single-digit seconds and fractions thereof. A half-second can mean the difference between walking away and trying to jam your thumb into a sucking chest wound and praying that the paramedics get to you in time.
Cheers all!
Tuner
Let's hear some of the other reasons besides the lighter spring to prevent the problem of "limpwristing"...if you don't mind?
______________________
I thought that it might be better served to start a new thread on the question, since the subject comes up often.
Limp-wrist malfunctions are most often caused by overspringing the slide,
and most of the experts will advise you to use the heaviest spring that will allow slidelock with the gun held loosely. The line of thought is that it
proves that you are getting full slide travel...but even if it locks, you may not be getting full travel. Note that the 5-inch 1911's full travel puts it
well past the point of slidelock...and even the shorter variants overtravel a little past that point. Even so...full rearward slide travel is only part of the
equation. There's also the matter of rebound. Even if a recoil spring allows
full travel, it changes the amount of impact force between slide, recoil guide rod flange, and frame. Steel has a certain amount of bounce when
impacted by another piece of steel. In the case of an autopistol, this
bounce...or rebound...plays a fairly important role in jump-starting the
slide back toward its return to battery.
Bear this in mind:
>Whenever a spring rate is changed, it has an effect on the cycle timing of the sprung part.<
____________________
This leads into the other aspect of the limp-grip question. Full slide travel rearward is only half the function. It also must return to battery. The dynamics of the cycle change in several ways between a firm grip and a loose grip...and inertia is the cause of these changes...or rather, the
different inertial response of the pistol when the grip changes. Gripped loosely, the pistol tends to move around more in several directions than when gripped firmly. If we accept that everything means SOMEthing, we can see how movement during the recoil/return to battery cycle can affect
how the pistol feeds...and reliable feeding is just as important to reliability
as extraction and ejection.
The recoil spring carries the potential for having the most effect, simply because it works both ways. Many times, whenever a return to battery failure is noted, I hear the advice to go up on the recoil spring a notch
to a heavier spring...but sometimes that can work against you in several ways. Not only does it make the pistol more grip-sensitive for reliable
ejection...if a jam occurs at the barrel throat or feed ramp, it can jam the gun more solidly. An example is a wedge doorstop. If you push it under the door with your hand, it's easier to remove than if you pound it in place with a hammer.
Other aspects of reliable feeding are:
Extractor tension...Feed ramp geometry and finish...Barrel throat geometry and finish..Chamber dimensions, geometry and finish...Breechface geometry, dimension and finish...and one of the more important...slide to frame fit and smoothness of movement. If these things are optimized, gripping the pistol loosely will have little effect of the reliability. if they aren't...a loose grip can serve to bring the cycle to a halt in mid-step, regardless of the recoil spring tension.
While I'm a proponent of the "Right, not Tight" school of thought...if the frame and slide are too loosely fitted, there can be just as many functional issues as when it's too tight. The slide wobbles as it travels, and it doesn't pick up the cartridge at the same point for each cycle. So consistency is another key. The slide needs to track fairly straight so that the round will feed straight. The vertical play in the slide is more critical than the side-play. The gun will tolerate looseness in the horizontal plane much better than in the vertical because the feed ramp and barrel throat forces the round to move upward at an angle and break over to horizontal in order to enter the chamber. If the slide has excessive play in the vertical plane, it
changes the angle of the round as it strips it from the magazine. Add a
loose grip, and things can go haywire quickly.
Part of my litmus test for reliability is to assemble the slide, barrel, and bushing on the bare frame and tilt the gun up and down at a 45 degree angle. The slide and barrel have to got into battery and lockup under gravity alone...and it must unlock and travel to the rear under gravity
with the rails dry. It has to pass the test 10 times in a row.
The second part is that the gun must run through 2 full magazines while
gripped as loosely as i can hold it without dropping it. This entails cradling
the pistol on top of my hand, with my index finger and the web of my thumb alone...finger on the trigger at the second distal joint...wrist broken on two planes. The pistol has to fire to slidelock, and it has to feed and return to battery every time.
The third part of the test is that the gun must function while held upside down in one hand. For this test, I load two rounds per magazine...in the interest of safety...for three magazines.
During part 4, the gun is assembled with a full-length guide rod but without the spring and plug. A full magazine of ball is locked in, and the slide is pushed into battery with the tip of one finger pushing it briskly. if my finger hyper-extends past the point of comfort inorder to push the slide to battery, the gun needs more work.
Part 5 entails magazine/ammo combinations. The gun is tested with the magazines that will be used with it, with the chosen ammo. The first four tests proved the gun...The fifth proves the magazines and ammunition, and the magazines then become proprietary to that gun. If the gun and magazines prove, they are fit for carry.
Why so much trouble and effort for a reliability function test? One is that I'm anal-retentive about reliability. That part of it was the result of some experience. The other is that, you can't bet on being able to obtain a solid grip on the gun if you actually have to use it. In fact, if the situation goes suddenly from dangerous to deadly...which those kinds of things usually do...you probably WON'T get that grip until you've had time to think about it. At that point, it may be too late for the gun to be of any help. Time frames in deadly confrontations are usually measured in single-digit seconds and fractions thereof. A half-second can mean the difference between walking away and trying to jam your thumb into a sucking chest wound and praying that the paramedics get to you in time.
Cheers all!
Tuner
