Limp Wrist FTF .Why it happens ?

[JsDubon]

Hello everybody. I have very little experience with semi-auto handguns, I was just watching a Video where this soldier was "limp wrist shooting" on purpuse with 2 9mm glocks . They jammed, the whole idea of his video was a test only , He explained in one of the comments that the reason that the 9mm jammed was because of the lighter frame, that the slide acts on the frame and if you don't have a firm grip on the pistol, and the frame doesn't have sufficient mass for the slide/recoil spring to work against, then you get the short cycling which we call "limp wristing". And that a heavier round like the .45 ACP negates this issue as the cartrdige has sufficient force to cycle the slide despite the lack of mass in the frame..

Can anybody please explain this to me I understand that 9mm has higher pressure than the .45 and I know the .45 is heavier though , It is not my intention to start a ""9mm vs 45" I carry a .38 everyday. I just want to know if his statement is true and why. the link to the video is below. Thank you very much. Have a grate evening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9JhCyFFxA

This is video where he tests a lot of different handguns and still the Glock is the only gun that FTF ?? Is this a glock issue??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsewsolPyBU&feature=related

 

[Steve C]

And that a heavier round like the .45 ACP negates this issue as the cartrdige has sufficient force to cycle the slide despite the lack of mass in the frame..

Consider that the Glock 21 with is a .45 ACP pistol did indeed fail to cycle in the video when purposely limp wristed, so the statement that some how the .45 acp is immune to the problem isn't true. However in general the .45 is heavier recoiling than the 9mm and provides more momentum to the slide so its less susceptible to limp wristing as is higher velocity +P and +P+ ammo in the 9mm.

Most semi auto's are recoil operated and recoil is momentum force (mass x Vel) and not energy (mass x vel squared). If you take the .45 acp with 230gr bullet at 850 fps you get a relative momentum force of 195500 while a 9mm with a 115 gr bullet at 1200 fps would be 138000 for approximately 30% less recoil for the 9mm round. Since the recoil needed to operate the mechanism of the pistols are similar the lighter recoiling caliber can more easily have too much of the energy used in the movement of the entire pistol rather then the slide action.

Any pistol can have this kind of problem but its more of an issue with lighter guns with less mass. If you normally hold the gun firm its not a problem with standard and faster velocity ammo. I have a friend that has problems with limp wristing and jammed my Beretta 92, a pistol that I never had a jam with in 10 years. Same problem with his Tokerov 9mm. He would have a jam practically every other round and I couldn't get it jam at all wit the same ammo. Once he applied a stronger hold, the jamming went away.

 

[labhound]

My wife constantly limp wrists and jams my Beretta 92FS but it never jams with me. She admits that she holds guns loosely. On the other hand, she has never had either of my Stoeger Cougars (9mm 8000 F and .45 ACP 8045) jam on her, and according to her she holds them the same. A friend of mine shooting my SR9 and Beretta 92FS had them both jam on him, but neither ever jammed on me nor the SR9 on the wife. I suspect its how people hold the gun, grip and arm position, more so than the weight of the gun.

 

[GunTech]

Lighter framed handguns have more of a problem because they have less moment of inertia. In a steel framed handgun, the weight of the frame helps resist movement as the slide is driven rearward more so than in the lighter alloy and polymer frame guns. There needs to be a minimum differential of motion between the slide and frame in order for there to be reliable cycling.

Absent the moment of inertia of the frame, an external force (such as holding the gun firmly in opposition to the movement of the slide) swerves the same purpose. The recoil spring is also a factor. A heavier spring transfer motion from the slide to the frame with less delay that an stronger one. With less delay come less differential in motion. There must be at least enough differential for the slide to fully cycle.

Just ol' Newtonian physics at work.

 

[JsDubon]

Thank you

Thank you for the info! I will go to the range and practice a lot before using my semi-outo for ccw, I think practice is all someone needs to avoid this problem. Once again thank you

 

[9mmepiphany]

However you should also be aware that some guns are less prone to this than others.

I have a 9mm Sig 226ST (heavy stainless steel frame) that I often shoot while holding to gun one-handed, using only my middle finger to keep the frame in the palm of my hand...it is to demonstrate to a gun will not jump out of your hand when you are not using a deathgrip on it...and it runs very well.

It has been my experience that most full sized (service sized) properly sprung 9mm pistols will function without too much grip pressure.

 

[Bovice]

I most definitely think it's a glock problem. I've never personally seen anyone of any body size (even the smallest of the small, like my little sister) ever limp-wrist and cause a FTF in any gun except a glock. I've seen grown men do it.

haha, had to get a little glock bashing in. It's only fair since I had to listen to an instructor tell me why my SIGs and their metallic mags are bad if they get dropped in gravel/sand; it causes the followers to bind up inside the mag housing, or so he says. I shoot them for IDPA and drop them in all kinds of soils and haven't had a problem with feeding. But what do I know? I still use the green followers in my aluminum GI AR mags. Tilted? Not once. Ya trick, ya!!!

 

[_CY_]

interesting discussion and most timely.... as some new 4th gen Glocks are having problems. reports are coming in about 4th gen Glock 19 jamming.

according to feedback from folks who have spoken to Glock Customer service. problems from return springs designed for .40, also used in 9mm causing problems. lighter springs are due spring 2011 to fix issue.

some folks are reporting zero issue with new 4th gen 9mm Glocks. but enough reports from folks with 4th gen 9mm Glocks to verify this is a problem. Naturally question arises if jams are from limp wristing....

my tuned Gold Cup 1911 that has NEVER jammed ... even when fed with all types of .45 ammo.
when shot my older son ... jams...no problems with my younger son

 

[GunTech]

Not just Glocks. A number of polymer frame guns have this problem. But the Mini-glock are in my experience the most problematic.

 

[Holo]

There are a few ways to help the grip problem.

Option 1: Have the person do some hand exercises to build hand strength. Squeezing a small sand filled balloon works well. Also many places sell hand work out tools. I know the range i go to has them for sale.

Option 2: Hold the gun as high up on the grip as you can (obviously without putting your hand in danger of slide bite). This substantially decreases the amount of play the gun will have when fired and thus applying more of the recoil pressure to the slide and not the entire gun.

Option 2 really helped my GF to stop limp wristing. She almost never gets FTEs now except when she has shot her fill for the day and her hand gets tired.

Hope this helps.

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

I can't for the life of me get my makarov to limp wrist.

 

[Zoogster]

The lighter the gun the more likely the problem.

As steve C explained the guns rely on rearward momentum to cycle the slide.
Since the 9mm slide will have less momentum it will be disturbed more easily by allowing the frame of the gun to move. A higher percentage of the necessary momentum will be lost to moving the whole gun instead of just the slide.
This means the slide may not go as far back as intended causing a failure.


The weight of the frame and slide has a major impact on this. A heavier frame begins to be effect by the recoil impulse later, and to a lesser extent. This makes them less subject to limp wristing.
So a polymer frame is more subject to the problem than a heavy steel frame.
A heavier polymer frame would be less effected than a lighter polymer frame, etc.

Another factor is obviously the spring/slide weight. A lighter spring/slide allows the slide to be more effected by recoil forces, and a heavier spring/slide has more that the recoil must overcome.
Of course too light of a spring leads to other problems, like greater muzzle climb, battering of the gun, and greater perceived recoil.
Since the spring is designed around the weight and anticipated operational momentum of the slide (based on caliber and loading) to give proper cycling and performance and not the weight of the frame, the proportion of resistance that must be overcome to a given frame weight varies significantly.

A gun with the lightest frame and the heaviest or most sprung slide would be most susceptible. While a gun with a heavy frame and really light slide/spring hard to jam because the frame would barely be moved by the recoil before the slide had cycled.

If you field strip a glock almost all of the weight is in the slide. The frame weighs next to nothing, and it is one of the lightest frames shooting full power cartridges (that require beefier slides and springs.)
In a 1911 a significant portion of the weight is in the frame. So even in the same caliber the 1911 is far less subject to limp wristing.

It is the amount of necessary momentum (slide mass, with spring adjusted for caliber specific impulse) to frame (not including slide) weight ratio that has the biggest impact on susceptibility.
The trade-off of having a light frame is you need a firmer grip.
As a gun is fired and the number of rounds in the magazine decreases, the overall weight of the frame decreases. This is a significant percentage of weight change on a light polymer doublestack handgun, where the ammo easily weighs several times more than the frame (minus slide.)
So it would become easier and easier to limp wrist as the magazine is emptied.

It is really easy to just hold the gun firmly to avoid trouble unless you have weak wrists or a medical condition though.

 

[benderx4]

Just a matter of physics. Newton's third law of motion. Without a firm foundation holding the gun, the slide motion doesn't equal the force generated by the exiting round. Some of that "force" gets transferred through the wrist motion, and the slide doesn't have enough energy (momentum) to cycle/eject properly.

 

[Mad Magyar]

Just a matter of physics. Newton's third law of motion. Without a firm foundation holding the gun, the slide motion doesn't equal the force generated by the exiting round. Some of that "force" gets transferred through the wrist motion, and the slide doesn't have enough energy (momentum) to cycle/eject properly.

Sounds pretty good, but doesn't explain why certain models, even light-smaller calibers will not display this phenomena under any conditions. I believe there are other variables at work, such as lube issues, slide-to-frame fit, loose ejector, weak extractor, heavy recoil spring, etc. BTW, the exiting=force on Newton's Law will still be on the slide whether you hold it or let it dangle on a string. The idea that one's wife can induce a limp-wrist reaction and the husband doesn't just means that a firmer grip is negating the other issues I spoke of....

 

[omegaflame]

I would like to suggest that you never ever rely on a gun that can FTF/FTE with limp writing. In a life-or-death situation there's only a chance you'll be able to maintain a proper shooting stance and grip.

Any gun that doesn't work right every time is a terrible thing to rely on in my opinion.

 

[hemiram]

I agree. Any gun that limpwrists is gone. Period. I don't buy plastic handguns, so it's not usually a problem.

 

[918v]

In simple terms, the bullet pushes against the barrel, the barrel pushes against the slide, the slide pushes against the recoil spring, and the recoil spring pushes against the frame.

For the gun to work, the slide needs to outaccelerate the frame under recoil.

The lighter the frame, the easier it is to push. The more the frame moves to the rear under recoil, the harder it is for the slide to outaccelerate it.

You gripping the frame adds mass and makes it hard for the frame to accelerate. Hence it tends to remain stationary. Limp wristing adds mass to the frame, but not enough to keep it from accelerating together with the slide.

Steel framed guns start off with more mass, so limp wristing adds just enough mass to make the frame stationary.

Higher recoiling guns, like the 45 ACP, generate so much slide velocity that limp wristing becomes less of an issue.

 

[GLOOB]

It's not always the case that a 9mm is easier to limpwrist than a .45. It depends on the design.

In the case of, say, a Glock:

The .45 caliber Glock frame is just as light as the 9mm frames. Even though it's bigger, the amount of steel parts in it is exactly the same. There's not enough extra polymer to make a difference.

The reason the .45 is harder to limp wrist is because the recoil impulse is longer (bullet is slower and stays in the barrel longer), the slide is heavier, the rearward momentum of the slide is greater, and the total duration of slide cycling time should be longer. If you're holding it loosely, you will only "miss" the first part of the recoil impulse. If you hold the 9mm too loose, you will "miss" more of the recoil impulse. By the time your hand completely stops the frame, the recoil spring will have slowed the slide down to a greater degree.

In more general terms, you could say that a gun with a heavier slide and lighter recoil spring will be harder to limpwrist, all else equal. (And BTW, the G21 and G17 both use a 17 lb recoil spring).

I would like to suggest that you never ever rely on a gun that can FTF/FTE with limp writing. In a life-or-death situation there's only a chance you'll be able to maintain a proper shooting stance and grip.

Any gun that doesn't work right every time is a terrible thing to rely on in my opinion.

It's true that a heavier frame can completely remove the possibility of a limp wrist malfunction. A lightweight frame in a recoil-operated firearm just cannot be made immune to limp-wrist issues. But they can be made to be 100% functional for the average individual. It's a tradeoff for weight. My hand has enough weight to operate all my polymer firearms, so I think adding it to the gun would just be redundant. If your hand does not, then some of these lightweight guns are not for you.

If you get into the "what if" games, then what if you gripped your 1911 wrong? It wouldn't even fire, once. Another one: what if your gun malfunctioned and went full auto, and you dropped it? (Or what if you put it on a trigger hook/rack while it was loaded? I've actually read about this happening!) It's not always a good thing for a gun to function without a proper grip.

 

[AK103K]

I personally think this whole limp wrist thing is an overblown internet thing more than anything else.

Im not saying that it, or whatever it is that people have happen, doesnt occur, but it doesnt occur once you understand whats going on and address it. Nothing more than a simple training/understanding issue, if you ever have it happen at all. I personally never have, or at least until I tred to force it.

I had a conversation with Sturmgewehre, the author of the videos above on one of these boards awhile back about this. Because of it, I took one of my Glock 17's and one of my Colt Commanders out the other range to try and replicate what he did.

The only way I could get the Glock to have a stoppage, was to shoot the gun "exactly" as he did, holding it sideways, by two fingers. While it did have stoppages, the failure rate was still at its worst, only one in three, and not every shot.

As soon as I held the gun in a more "realistic" grip, with the gun in the web of my hand, no matter how lightly I held it, it fired without issue. I fired four full mags (68 rounds) with no "grip" at all, with simply the guns weight/trigger guard resting on my middle finger and the rear of the gun resting on the web of my "open" hand. The only thing keeping the gun from flying away, was my finger in the trigger. Not one stoppage.

Interestingly enough, shooting the Commander the same way, caused it to have malfunctions due to the grip safety not being engaged.

Now, the main thing it proved to me was, if you try hard enough, you can get anything to stop running. You may have to venture into the unrealistic to do so, but you do so all the same. If youre of the thought that "well, I've been injured, and its the only way I can possibly hold the gun, hanging upside down with my head turned 180* due to my injury", I'm going to burst your bubble a little further.

While trying to get the guns to not work, I also tried to keep things somewhat "real", and still had a target (I shoot "people" picture targets) that had to be hit while doing so. Holding the guns like was done in the video, the few hits on the target that actually did hit the person on the target, would not have been a serious wound. Most of the rounds didnt hit the target at all.

Switch to the "no grip" but more realistic type grip, and every one hit pretty much where I was looking when the gun went off. The gun also went off every time I pulled the trigger too, if you didnt catch that before.

If you really think this is such an issue, then take your gun out to the range and prove to yourself it either is, or isnt. I think youll most likely find its the latter. If you do have a problem, then address it. Personally, I think if youve been shooting even just a little while, its going to be a non issue for you, but the only way to really know, is to do your own homework.

 

[Dulvarian]

The only time I have ever seen it happen was with a S&W model 308 (9mm), and a female friend of mine was shooting it. Every shot she fired was stovepiping, something I had never seen before. I would clear it, fire it, verify no malfunction, and then hand it back. We did this about three or four times, and then I focused on what her hands and the gun were doing when she fired. Her elbows were stiff, but her wrists were not locked.

I stood behind her and held my hand over hers while she fired it. Which is a rather intimate position to be in when your wife is watching, just for the record. That cleared it up, and firmed up in her mind what I was talking about when I told her to "Firmly grasp" and "tighten up your wrists". No problems after that.

And yes, it is an all metal frame, compact 9mm. NOT a polymer. And it is the only time I can recall ever seeing it happen in person. ... Yep, that's the only time I remember seeing it.

 

[hemiram]

I've had a couple of guns that required an excessively tight grip, to the point of being uncomfortable, and one that was so prone to it that I had to hold onto it as if I was trying to strangle it to get anything close to proper operation. I have a very strong grip, and if it made my hand hurt after a single mag, I can't imagine how anyone on the smaller/weaker side could expect them to work well at all.

All these guns were soon sold off. I don't keep anything that doesn't fire with a grip similar to what I could do when I hurt my hand years ago. If they don't feed 100%, off they go.

 

[GLOOB]

Which ones?

Are you sure they wouldn't have been better off seeing a gunsmith, rather than administering a death grip?