Lines in the sand

[mercop]

I was having a conversation with someone in reference to the difference between drawing down on someone and pulling the trigger. Years before I ever had to pull the trigger a friend of mine who has been in several shootings told me that if I had time to think about shooting I did not need to. I found that to be true and so has anyone I shared it with who has been in a shooting.

The more and more I talk to people who have pulled the trigger the more and more I believe that we all have our own snap shots in our mind, or lines in the sand. The more you have trained physically or mentally the more you have. Almost like someone telling you that when you see a specific picture you should respond by pressing a button. Trained people have more buttons and push them faster.

For example, anyone who carries a gun will recognize a gun pointed at them as a threat and likely pull the trigger. But not everyone would pull the trigger on someone within seven yards armed with a baseball bat.

To the person every person I have ever spoken with that has pulled the trigger has a picture in their minds eye the exact second that the action of the person they shot resulted in them shooting. It should also be noted that it comes down to perception and the physical evidence may not correspond. This does not mean that they are lying, only that perception is reality.

I have also found that for many people including myself when they think of a critical situation they were involved it it is seldom runs like a video and instead the aforementioned slide show with some slides really standing out against others.

I hope this makes sense and I encourage folks to discuss this whether or not they have been involved in a shooting or not.

The more you train with different people in different conditions you will be surprised at how your perception changes and when you will shoot or choose not to.

 

[Macmac]

My personal line with a fool and a bat is about 2 feet short of his reach. The whole idea is to stop him, not kill him. At 7 yards I'ld like to be near ready to present, and hope I would be aware enough, but that isn't alway the case.

Some bad guys can get right in close before you know their intent.

Hey buddy got a light?

 

[mercop]

Too true, you recognize it for the threat it "can" present and obviously have other skill sets to deal with it. In the same situations others who don't may just shoot him. Would they be wrong? Depends on the totality of the circumstances.

I firmly believe that you counter attack a bad guy like a spider monkey on crack you can deal with many situations open handed.

 

[WardenWolf]

I've planned my scenarios out for a long time. I also long ago decided that if an intruder breaks into my house and doesn't run despite setting off the alarm, I'm not giving them a chance unless I catch them with their back to me and I can see their hands. Their not running after setting off a very loud alarm means they're either planning on or prepared for an encounter with the homeowner. Thus I consider them to be an immediate threat to my life, and that is all that is required under Arizona law.

 

[threefeathers]

In my house they will die. Outside I will use furtive movements I recognize as threatning.

 

[JWarren]

As of about 2.5 hours ago, I have some REAL interesting perspectives on this subject. However, I think I'll be starting a thread on it tonight or tomorrow when I calm down.

Suffice it to say that the Sheriff's Deputy just left my house. No, no one was shot. Someone IS in custody.



-- John

 

[mousewallrat]

As of about 2.5 hours ago, I have some REAL interesting perspectives on this subject. However, I think I'll be starting a thread on it tonight or tomorrow when I calm down.

Suffice it to say that the Sheriff's Deputy just left my house. No, no one was shot. Someone IS in custody.

I'll be looking for that thread.

 

[mercop]

Glad you are OK.

 

[YammyMonkey]

John-

Glad to hear you're okay. Keep in mind though than anything you put out in cyberspace could be used against you at some point. Legally or otherwise.

 

[DarkSoldier]

JWarren,

I'm glad you are OK and the BG is in custody.

Although we'd all like to have the opportunity to learn from your experience, I think you should carefully consider taking YammyMonkey's advice for the time being.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier

 

[sm]

John,

You take care my friend, and know I am sending best to you and yours.


Re: Lines in the sand.

Yes, I have btdt, and words do not convey.
I will share those that have btdt, have an understanding and one needs not to say anything, as the eyes, and set jaws speaks volumes.

Another thing is, "what ifs" and "by golly I'll do that!" are not what I pay attention to; instead "this is what happened and how I survived" .

There is a difference.

 

[JWarren]

YammyMonkey & DarkSoldier,

Thanks for the wise advise. SM, as always, thanks for the consideration.


While I am not overly concerned that there is any scrutinity directed towards me, I do think that I will at least wait until Monday before posting anything. Monday, I have to go to the Sheriff's Office to sign some paperwork.

After all, who knows. I appreciate the advice and concern.


This thread does have merit. Let's all please carry own with the general concept without my highjack. I appologize to the OP. I plan on staying out of it for the time being.


We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.


-- John

 

[Macmac]

JWarren , Thae care as to what and when you post, untill you can be certain no charges against you are forth coming.

Other wise i am dying to know what the tale is!...
..........................................
OT: sort of. on edit, as this seems the most related thread.

When I first came here, it was via another site, and a tale in archives here somewhere. I had a hard drive go down, all locked up, and lost the bookmark.

I would like to have the link for that tale again. It was fiction, based on someone's ideas on SHTF and leaving home in 2 loaded down vehicals. On the interstate an accident occured in the tale, and the rest of the story was about getting off that road, and trying to get to the 'safe house' as best i can recall. It had a rather poor ending, as this particular family made too many errors and had circumstances far beyond their controll occur, and so not one of them survived that single day.

Does this ring a bell with anyone?

The reason I would like that link is because i was stranded in trffic on I-90 west of Boston some years ago, when nothing in particular was going on, but an accident far ahead, maybe 100 miles for all I know, forced the interstate to shut down. From where i was it took hours to get to the next exit.

Remember nothing news worthy was really going on, other than what must have been a car crash.

Well people were out of their vehicals and fist fighting over a gain of 6 inches of pavments.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

for me, and perhaps very few others, it is just as important for there to be lines in the sand that i don't cross. i can easier control my behavior and actions/reactions than other folks .in order to not get in trouble sometimes the best, but not easiest, is not to be in that place

 

[Macmac]

cassandrasdaddy , HUH?

How do you know you can be incontroll better than others here?

How do you know where bad evil will be ahead of time, and so not be there?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

what i tried, and failed, to convey is the idea that i have no control over others. and that if i am smart i can use my self control to not cross certain lines and thereby not have to try to use a gun to control other folks. often i can just not be in places where trouble happens.

 

[mgkdrgn]

You would be shocked how quickly someone at 7 yards can be "on you". We did that exercise at my CCW class. Even when they knew what was coming, only 1 or 2 people out of a class of 20 (including the instructors) we able to go from holstered to a shot before they were stuck with the bat. The 2 that did get to "point" would have been struck also, as the bat was in motion and mere inches from their heads.

My personal line with a fool and a bat is about 2 feet short of his reach. The whole idea is to stop him, not kill him. At 7 yards I'ld like to be near ready to present, and hope I would be aware enough, but that isn't alway the case.

Some bad guys can get right in close before you know their intent.

Hey buddy got a light?

 

[Macmac]

mgkdrgn, Oh I know 21 feet is about 3 running steps for me. My point was more under you don't even get that warning when is is "Hew Mista' got a light?"

I understand you well.

Once sitting in my window working Trade Silver looking down at it, my wife saw 3 men all bigger than me running in the dooryard. This wasn't typical, as I live about 6 miles from anyone.

She told me and passed my Remington Rand, which I stuffed in my backside belt as fast as i could and aswered the door as fast as I could too.

That distance to from in front looking out the window was much more than 21 feet. They appeared in the doorway almost faster than I could get warning and be armed.

That turned out be nothing, which is always good. But being that remote where I could get blind folded, dead drunk, and fire any weapon and only hit trees, rocks or a very unfortunate moose, still can have bad guys.

I did have bad guys come there and more than once, but never needed to fire a weapon to stop any other them there.

There are just times no one can ID a bad guy untill he has you..

I have taken personal measures these days with the systems that be, being so flawed as they are, and still I don't see that as any saving, but i do se it as a chance. IMO no one can ask more than a chance.

Always I hear about how it must be so nice to be rural, and so remote, and the thinking appears that because it is remote there is never any troubles.

This thinking has flaws. When I was that remote just to a paved road in summer time it was 20 minutes time for me speeding. It was another easy 10 minutes to the PD. So that means there is no way if a 911 call was made no one could possibley be there to assist with in 30 minutes if they started the instant their phone rang.

One of my measures today is to never ever be unarmed, never having to move as much as one inch to be armed ever. That counts the shower.

Crooks have be come far more hardened and stealthy, and you may not be able to tell a crook any more by their looks.

 

[YammyMonkey]

Back to the topic at hand:

One big benefit of the line in the sand concept, IF you stick to it, is that you'll be primed to act at a certain stimulus, able to mentally ramp yourself & your response up as the attacker gets closer to that line. You'll also have some sort of plan worked out ahead of time. It might not be perfect, but it's still a plan & better than an Oh ____ now what!?!?!? response.

Forutnately I have never had to shoot someone but the "slideshow" effect is something I've noticed after being in other stressful situations. It was like my brain just said "This, this & that are what we need to remember." Whether it's some innate survival deal where your brain picks out the items most likely to cue you in to bad things in the future or whether it's just overload I don't know.

One of the other things to consider is the automatic filling in of blanks & your potentially altered perception of events. Those two items speak loud & proud for the concept of "Officer I intend to cooperate fully but I want to talk to my lawyer first." You can't unsay anything & unfortunately it'll all be available in your criminal &/or civil trials to be used against you.

 

[Erik]

My lines in the sand:

Weapons in hand.
Evidence of unusual hand-to-hand skill.
Any threat I deem serious when I'm with my family.

The first, the distances have to match the threat. The second, I'd have to either have seen, or been assured, that I'm dealing with someone beyond the usual rough and tumbler. The last... Hey, what can I say, despite being comfortable going hands on, when my family is around is not the time for it.

At that point, I produce weapons. Whether I use them or not at that point depends on something much narrower than a line in the sand.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

In my house they will die.

Yeah for real. If there is someone in my house that doesn't high tail it when I confront them is toast. I don't care if there is no castle law in MA, if someone is in my house that isn't supposed to be, that's reason enough for me to shoot him/them. That is all based on the fact that I live with my family.