When Do You Shoot

[USMC 1975]

Being new to CC I have went through different scenarios in my head dozens of times. I have continually asked myself - " at what point do you unholster a gun and pull the trigger ? "

Is it when you have exhausted all efforts to make the perp flee ?
Is it when you have reached the point of not being able to diffuse the situation ?
Is it when I have reached the point to either unholster and shoot or die ?

I have read a few comments on different gun forums about " shooting when you feel your life is in danger. But just exactly what is the litmus test for that ? What is going to make the difference between a justified shooting and a felony arrest / prison time ? God knows you ever shoot someone, the DAwill climb up your rear end with a microscope and examine every single thing you did up to the time of pulling the trigger.

Do they need a weapon in their hand ?

Obviously, if someone pulls a gun on you, its time to shoot. But what if someone pulls a knife on you, maintains a safe distance from you while running their mouth threatening to kill you ? Hell, even LEO's will try and talk the weapon out of a perp's hand. I have seen them talk perp's into dropping their guns before.

Yet it appears some CC people believe that at the first sign of trouble, they are going to unload on the BG.

Has anyone ever ran different scenarios through their head and went over exactly what they would do ? Have you defined your threshold or limit ?

In the case of CC, my entire thought process and belief revolves around trying to 1.) Defuse the situation and wait for help to arrive 2.) Try and talk a weapon ( knife, club, etc. ) out of the perps hands and to shoot as a very last resort.

Just curious to know what others think and believe. What worries me these days are the do-gooders and bleeding heart liberals who will come running in defense of a BG if I ever drop one. I never want to have a charge placed on me for being a John Wayne and shooting first and asking questions later.

What will define your moment of pulling the trigger and ending a life ?

Chris

 

[sacp81170a]

What will define your moment of pulling the trigger and ending a life ?

Use of force is one of those subjects where you can study for years and still be second guessed. Broadly, what we're talking about falls into two areas, use of force and use of deadly force. When a gun is the instrumentality you are always in the realm of deadly force. The three basics: opportunity, intent, and capability. If someone has the opportunity to inflict serious bodily injury or death, has expressed the intent, and has the capability you are justified in using deadly force to stop them.

Example: A belligerent person with a knife is standing 21 feet away telling you he's going to kill you (I know, it doesn't happen that way in the "real" world but this scenario is for purposes of illustration) but he's on the other side of a 10 foot hurricane fence.

You have no justification for using deadly force in this scenario. He has the intent (expressed by his threat), the capability (the knife), but no opportunity (the fence is in his way). It's not so easy to break down real world situations into nice neat pieces like this but that's basically what you'll have to do to justify any shoot later. Fortunately, the standard is subjective, meaning that the dispassionate observations of an observer in a safe position don't count; your state of mind in the totality of the circumstances does. Your fear for your own and your loved one's safety, measured against the standard of the mythical "reasonably prudent individual" will determine whether you will be justified or not.

Whether you'll be charged is very dependent on state and local statutes. If you don't have a good feel for how they affect your situation it's best to seek out information from your local prosecutor and attorneys in your area.

(You really picked a subject that needs lots of explanation.)

Is it when you have exhausted all efforts to make the perp flee?

If he's a credible threat, yes. If not, no.

Is it when you have reached the point of not being able to diffuse the situation?

You can attempt to defuse the confrontation but it's not your responsibility to do so in some states. For example, Florida has its "stand your ground" law while Massachusetts almost requires you to flee from your own home if you feel deadly force may become necessary. State law varies so widely on the subject that I can't begin to answer your question without knowing where you are.

Is it when I have reached the point to either unholster and shoot or die?

If it gets that far, you may already be behind the power curve.

Do they need a weapon in their hand ?

No. There are different circumstances where a credible threat of deadly force doesn't require a weapon. For example, a fit 20 year old vs. a 70 year old on a walker can obviously cause serious bodily injury without a weapon. Another example, multiple attackers. A beat down by 5 or 6 teenage gang bangers is deadly force. Someone who is known to you to have training and skills that make them a deadly threat, Mike Tyson, for instance. Any great physical disparity either in numbers, size, strength or skill can constitute the capability to inflict deadly force. Always remember you still have those other two elements involved, intent and opportunity.

Has anyone ever ran different scenarios through their head and went over exactly what they would do ? Have you defined your threshold or limit ?

All the time. If you CCW and don't do this, you might as well leave it at home. I always advise my students that having a CCW means nothing if they aren't committed to shooting when it's necessary. It's not a crutch to be used to bolster your own sense of self esteem but a tool of last resort. When you get your CCW and are carrying your objective is never to take a life. You shoot only to stop an attack.

Obviously, if someone pulls a gun on you, its time to shoot. But what if someone pulls a knife on you, maintains a safe distance from you while running their mouth threatening to kill you ?

What is a safe distance? That's the critical question. You have the knife (capability) and the threat (intent). If he's close enough to threaten you without having to shout (if he could talk in a normal conversational voice and you could hear him, whether he's shouting or not) then I'd say he has the opportunity. Do you believe the threat? That's imminent danger. Are you afraid that he'll carry out the threat?

My suggestion: seek out some good force on force training. Having your questions answered all day on an internet forum won't teach you as much as ten minutes of scenario based training.

 

[USMC 1975]

I consider my CCW as something that carries a great deal of responsibility.
Yes my thread probably isn't easy to answer which is why I brought it up.

We can all talk like cowboys here and think back to the Wild West days by saying if some BG threatens them, they will blow their sorry asses away. But I often wonder if these CCW'ers ever think about the consequences, the high level of scrutiny they will receive and the fall out afterwards. Not to mention that unless it is clear cut SD, you risk going to prison.

One of the other reasons why I asked this question is because a close friend of mine, a LEO, did drop a BG. His rounds were on target and the BG died. To this day he has issues over it and has had a hard time living with the fact that he took another life. He is still questioning himself " could I have done something different to get a better outcome ? ".

If it comes down to me dying or the BG dying, I will do what I can to survive. But my question is at which point do you decide you are going to die ?

Thanks again for your post. You spoke with a lot of intelligence.

Chris

 

[sacp81170a]

One of the other reasons why I asked this question is because a close friend of mine, a LEO, did drop a BG. His rounds were on target and the BG died. To this day he has issues over it and has had a hard time living with the fact that he took another life. He is still questioning himself " could I have done something different to get a better outcome ? ".

The best suggestion I can make is to read the book "On Killing" by LtCol Dave Grossman. If you ever have the chance to attend one of his "Bulletproof Mind" seminars, jump at it. The kinds of thoughts your friend is having are normal for any sane human being. Dealing with them and realizing that they are normal is the key. "On Killing" is a good first step in preparing yourself for the mental and physical consequences of a traumatic stress incident.

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

What's the difference between "escalating" and being "behind the power curve"?

Escalating can get your butt handed to you in the courtroom (why did you draw when he had no gun showing?)

Behind the power curve can be more immediately fatal (you're not gonna beat a gun thats already out and on you, I don't care how fast your draw is...)

Where's the legally protected "sweet spot" between the two?

 

[freakshow10mm]

When it is time to draw, you will know when the time is right. When it is time to shoot, you will know when the time is right.

When it is time to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.

You don't have to see a weapon in order to draw. I've read of a situation where a guy was in a car and there was someone chasing someone else on foot while he was stopped at a red light. The guy being chased walked past his car with his hands around his waist. The guy in the car drew his gun and held it on his lap, keeping an eye on the other guy's hands. The guy in the car said "Keep moving along" to the other guy.

In this situation, if the guy in the car had remained holstered and the other guy pulled a weapon, the draw time while in the vehicle to get the gun into play might have been costly.

A lot of trainers say don't draw unless you intend to shoot. This is not always true. There is justification for drawing without shooting. Just because one draws, doesn't mean one shoots.

If you do draw, you better have clear and concisive reasoning behind it and be able to articulate your justification for it. The BGs demeanor and hands figgeting about his waist could be a sign that he might have a weapon and intend to cause harm. Drawing and keeping the weapon behind your leg while backing away and telling the BG to stay back would be a reasonable and justifiable draw. If he produces a weapon, then bring the gun up WHILE MOVING TO THE SIDE TO BREAK THE LINE OF ATTACK and get ready to make a loud noise. If he BG so much as takes a step toward you, talking is done and the time to shoot is NOW.

If you draw like above and he retreats, CALL 911 and report the incident. Call immediately. Police treat the one that calls first as the victim until everything is sorted out.