Loaded magazine in vehicle/CA

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Combat-wombat

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If one were to have their guns unloaded and locked as required by CA law when in a vehicle, would it be legal for him/her to have loaded magazines for those weapons in the vehicle as well, outside of the container the guns are in?

Thanks.
 
Yes, as long as the magazine is seperated from the gun. If you have a loaded mag in the box or in the gun but no round chambered your gonna get busted. Happened to a friend of mine, he got pulled over and when the officer asked "any guns in the car?" he said yes.

He was being honest and figured everything was okay as he had them in locked containers. When they opened the boxes and found a loaded mag in the gun (no round chambered) they cuffed him up and took him away. He ended up getting a slap on the wrist but it could've been worse. It cost him some big money also to get a good lawyer to keep him out of jail.
 
50 got it right. If you keep a loaded mag in the car, make sure it's separate from the gun(s).

IMHO, if it's not in the gun, no round is chambered and the case/box is locked, it's kinda ticky-tack to bust someone. That said, I never do it, 'cause they can legally bust you and cause real headaches in the future when you try to add to your collection.
 
Okay, that's what I thought. It would be a completely ridiculous law if it existed- But this IS California.
 
You know I have heard all sorts of different crap on this law. Can anyone post it up for us to read? I have heard that having the ammo in the same container can get you busted and I just would like to see what the law says. I have my CCW so I don't have to worry about my handguns, which is mainly what the law is about. It would be interesting to see what the rule is for rifles and shotguns. I was thinking as long as the magazine or ammo is not attached to the weapon you are ok. Does that mean no shotgun shells in a side saddle or no 30 round magazine in the buttstock of the SU-16?
 
Yes, as long as the magazine is seperated from the gun. If you have a loaded mag in the box or in the gun but no round chambered your gonna get busted. Happened to a friend of mine, he got pulled over and when the officer asked "any guns in the car?" he said yes.

He was being honest and figured everything was okay as he had them in locked containers. When they opened the boxes and found a loaded mag in the gun (no round chambered) they cuffed him up and took him away. He ended up getting a slap on the wrist but it could've been worse. It cost him some big money also to get a good lawyer to keep him out of jail.

Why the heck does anyone ever consent to a search??? I'm as big a supporter of law and order as anyone, but I doubt I would ever, under any circumstance, give my consent. If you don't have a warrant, then you're going to have to open yourself up to Fourth Amendment issues if you find something you think indicates my guilt of something.

My rationale? Well, how likely is it that the police might find something that'll make them say "Oh, gee, sorry... we know for a fact you aren't involved in whatever it is we contacted you about!"? How about zero? But, what is the chance they find something that makes them more interested in me? Significantly higher. My brand of kitchen knife is the same as used in the murder. I chew the same gum as a wrapper found at the scene. I have a .45, and the robbery was committed with a .45 (or so the clerk said).

Sorry... I see no benefit whatsoever to consenting to any search. Only potential trouble.
 
The only thing he could think of why he was asked, he had a NRA sticker on his vehicle. At the time he didn't know that having a loaded mag or ammo in the same container as a firearm in Kali was/is a no no.
 
This page, from the CA DOJ website, contains the Penal Code sections about which you're inquiring ... http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12020.htm

You might start with 12026.1 & 12026.2, 12027 & 12031, but you should read all of it if you're interested in these things.

This is the main page, which contains links to many pages of different information ... http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/

The first linked page was located in the Dangerous Weapons Control Laws, in the left side column.

Down within 12031 you'll find these sections ...

"(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this section.
(f) As used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.
(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder."
 
Here in Colorado, if you legally own a gun or are entitled to own guns, you can carry one, loaded or unloaded, concealed or unconcealed, in your car any time for any reason or no reason at all—and that applies to everybody, not just concealed hand gun permit holders.

I'm sure I'll always miss the temperate climate and beaches.
 
My oh so humble interpretation of this law goes like this.........

If you have in your possession a loaded magazine in CA you are considered to be carrying a loaded weapon. It does not matter if you do not have the firearm that the magazine goes to, it only matters that the magazine is loaded.

Please refer to the aforementioned Penal Code section 12031 (g) posted by Fastbolt, which states (read this very carefully - it is easily open to interpretation):

A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded...when there is an unexpended cartridge...in the...magazine.

Why even bother with the semantics of the law?; be smart and DON'T have loaded magazines in your car, and DON'T carry your ammo in the same case as your firearm. It is really quite simple.

Even loaded speedloaders for revolvers would be suspect due to the language stating "including, but not limited to...".

I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on television - but....do YOU want to be the one establishing case law against some zany Californian prosecutor?.

And icing for the cake - you cannot just drive around in California with a gun in your car - even if it's properly packaged in a locked container seperate from the ammo. You must have a LAWFUL reason for transporting said firearm.

Section 12026.1(2)
The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any LAWFUL purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.

Section 12026.2 lists what is considered LAWFUL (please refer to it for the full language, an excerpt follows):

(7)The transportation of a firearm by a person when going DIRECTLY to, or coming DIRECTLY from.....yadda, yadda, yadda...

DIRECTLY means you can't stop at 7-11 and get a Slurpy; you can't stop to drop off your dry cleaning; pretty much you gotta have a LAWFUL reason for having that gun with you or you're busted!.

Welcome to California.

The above applies to concealable weapons in particular
 
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As per the caldoj website:
----------------------------------------

SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES

Nonconcealable firearms (rifles and shotguns) are not generally covered within the provisions of California Penal Code section 12025 and therefore are not required to be transported in a locked container. However, as with any firearm, nonconcealable firearms must be unloaded while they are being transported. A rifle or shotgun that is considered an assault weapon in California must be transported in accordance with Penal Code section 12026.1.
 
And icing for the cake - you cannot just drive around in California with a gun in your car - even if it's properly packaged in a locked container seperate from the ammo. You must have a LAWFUL reason for transporting said firearm.
Are you sure about that? I thought that list of lawful reasons were the exemptions of why you could carry a handgun outside of a locked container inside your vehicle. Of course it has to be unloaded, but my understanding was that the list was a list of reason that are exceptions.

So what about rifles and shotguns? Am I not supposed to have magazines in the same rifle cases as the rifles?

I sure am glad I have my CCW. I can just forget all of those stupid handgun rules.

One more thing,
You must have a LAWFUL reason for transporting said firearm.
How about the 2nd Amendment? :evil: Screw this state.
 
Good Lord, how many crazy rules do you have to comply with in states like CA? And that other thread concerning the permit needed to shoot handguns at the range in CT... :banghead:
 
but my understanding was that the list was a list of reason that are exceptions.
Heh, BINGO. This is the reason CA laws are such a bear to understand. You start out with a blanket prohibition, followed by a gajillion specific exceptions.

Those of you with C&Rs, just look at the book on State laws BATFE sends you every year. CA takes up nearly 10% of a book that lists all 50 states. And it's because of this prohibition with exceptions manure.
 
AB98, as currently written will make it a crime to have a gun and ammo for it in the car....

So, things are about to get worse....
 
I asked the DOJ this same question. The response: A loaded magazine = A loaded gun. Period.

The question on my mind though is magazine compatibility. Some guns have compatible magazines between them. I only have my CZ-PCR on my CCW. So if I have my RAMI in the trunk and a loaded spare mag somewhere else in the car, can I be busted for having a loaded gun?
 
Standing Wolf,
I'm sure I'll always miss the temperate climate and beaches

Heh. Not me. We've got our own beaches up here, and I much prefer the rain and cold.
Man, am I ever glad I immigrated to America.
We do have our own nanny state socialists up here, but luckily the inmates don't seem to be running the asylum just yet.
Come on, just leave, guys. You know CA is gonna fall into the ocean, right? :neener:

Seriously, I gotta hand it to the folks who are willing to stay behind and fight.
Here's to the rear guard!
1prost.gif
 
As indicated above, no ammo in any part of the gun, including magazine. BTW, the other basic gun law in CA is no concealed handguns. Again, this means any part of the gun, including the magazine. Store the whole enchalada, completely unloaded in the locked container. Keep the ammo seperate.
 
The significant graphs from Clark:
The term "loaded" has a commonly understood meaning: "to put a load or charge in (a device or piece of equipment) a gun" or "to put a load on or in a carrier, device, or container; esp: to insert the charge or cartridge into the chamber of a firearm." (Webster's New Collegiate Dict. (1976) p. 674.) Under the commonly understood meaning of the term "loaded," a firearm is "loaded" when a shell or cartridge has been placed into a position from which it can be fired; the shotgun is not "loaded" if the shell or cartridge is stored elsewhere and not yet placed in a firing position. The shells here were placed in a separate storage compartment of the shotgun and were not yet "loaded" as the term is commonly understood.
...
[2] A statute "must be given a reasonable and commonsense interpretation consistent with the apparent purpose and intention of the Legislature, practical rather than technical in nature, and which, when applied, will result in wise policy rather than mischief or absurdity. [Citations.]" (Beaty v. Imperial Irrigation Dist. (1986) 186 Cal.App.3d 897, 902 [231 Cal.Rptr. 128].) "The words must be construed in context in light of the nature and obvious purpose of the statute where they appear. [Citation.]" (Decker v. City of Imperial Beach (1989) 209 Cal.App.3d 349, 354 [257 Cal.Rptr. 356]; Lakin v. Watkins Associated Industries (1993) 6 Cal.4th 644, 659 [25 Cal.Rptr.2d 109, 863 P.2d 179].)

[1b] The Attorney General urges a literal interpretation should be adopted, i.e., that if an unexpended shell is "attached in any manner" to a [45 Cal.App.4th 1154] firearm, then the firearm is loaded, regardless of whether the shell has been attached in a manner in which it can be fired from the firearm. This literal interpretation, while supported by words contained in the statute, does not appear to comport with the legislative intent.

The Legislature in Penal Code section 12031, subdivision (g), provided some examples of how a shell would be "attached" to a firearm so that the firearm is loaded, i.e., in the firing chamber, magazine or clip; situations in which the firearm would be "loaded" in the usual meaning of the word, i.e., the shell is placed in a position from which it can be fired. Significantly, the Legislature also provided that a muzzle-loader firearm must be capped or primed, have a powder charge and ball in the barrel or cylinder before it is deemed "loaded," again a definition which is consistent with the common meaning of the term "loaded," i.e., ready for firing.

Given the examples are all consistent with an intent to use the common meaning of "loaded," it follows the Legislature's use of the phrase "attached in any manner" to the firearm was intended to encompass a situation where a shell or cartridge might be attached to a firearm or "loaded" for firing by some unconventional method. The phrase does not demonstrate a clear Legislative intent to deem a firearm loaded no matter how a shell is attached to a firearm; in particular, it does not indicate a clear intent to deem a gun "loaded" when the ammunition, as here, is in a storage compartment which is not equivalent to either a magazine or clip and from which the ammunition cannot be fired.

Our conclusion that the Legislature intended "loaded" as used in Penal Code section 12031 to reflect the common definition is supported by the court in People v. Heffner (1977) 70 Cal.App.3d 643, 650 [139 Cal.Rptr. 45], which reached the same conclusion ("the apparent purpose [of the 'loaded' definition] is to make it clear that for purpose of section 12031 the usual meaning of 'loaded firearm' is to apply."). In Heffner, the court noted when the Legislature adopted Penal Code section 12031, it also adopted another Penal Code statute which contained a special definition of "loaded," i.e., that a firearm was loaded if the firearm and unexpended ammunition were in the immediate possession of the same person. This definition applied to the offenses of bringing a "loaded" firearm into certain state governmental offices and residences of certain state officers and legislators. (People v. Heffner, supra, 70 Cal.App.3d at p. 650; Pen. Code, § 171e.) Since Heffner, the Legislature has adopted this special definition of "loaded" for the offense of carrying a loaded firearm with an intent to commit a felony. (Pen. Code, [45 Cal.App.4th 1155] §§ 12001, subd. (j); 12023.) fn. 1 Significantly, the Legislature has not amended the common definition of "loaded" as used in section 12031 nor elected to provide a specialized definition of "loaded" for Health and Safety Code section 11370.1.
People v Clark Findlaw requires registration - but it's free.

Consult a real lawyer for real advice - 1996 was long enough ago for competing/contradicting case law.

Now, remember - cops are not supposed to spend a lot of time interpreting laws, they go by their instructions and training. Lawyers and courts fix the details. An individual officer may believe or may have been instructed to treat a loaded magazine as a loaded weapon. Since the courts and lawyers are expensive, it would cost a lot to get a determination in any particular case. And meanwhile, you would not have your gun.

I'm convinced that 'loaded mag=loaded gun', in that form, is plain wrong. (Loaded mag IN the mag well of the gun = loaded weapon, whether a round is chambered or not.) But the consequences of encountering a LEO who believes differently are pretty severe compared to the minor inconvenience of loading mags at the range instead of at home, so I act as if it were correct
 
A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

"...magazine, or clip thereof ATTACHED TO THE FIREARM."

Question: does this apply to rifles and shotguns, meaning my shell loops on my 870 must be empty when transporting it?'
 
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