Loading 45ACP-Problems Going Into Battery-Is Load Too Light?

[gerrym526]

I'm trying Vihtavouri powder for the first time. Loading 45ACP 230 TMJ RN (Berry's) with N340. Using my Speer guidelines for this bullet weight and powder, I've loaded it with 5.7gr of N340. The VV guidelines for this powder and 45 ACP start at 5.8 grains.

Test fired in my 1911, about every third round the gun doesn't go into battery with the round. I've used a Lyman case guage so I know the round will chamber properly. Also use Wilson combat mags, which don't give me any trouble with other reloaded 45ACP.
Is this problem due to light loads? Do I need to bump up the charge? I'm making the assumption that there isn't sufficient pressure to properly chamber the next round after the spent case has been ejected.

Thanks in advance for the help.
Gerry

 

[fxvr5]

Test fired in my 1911, about every third round the gun doesn't go into battery with the round. I've used a Lyman case guage so I know the round will chamber properly.
Gerry

Do the rounds involved in the malfunction pass the plunk test in the barrel?

Use your barrel's chamber as the case gauge. Just because they fit in the Lyman case gauge, it doesn't mean they will fit in your barrel's chamber.

What is your OAL?

 

[LaneP]

Do the rounds involved in the malfunction pass the plunk test in the barrel?

Use your barrel's chamber as the case gauge. Just because they fit in the Lyman case gauge, it doesn't mean they will fit in your barrel's chamber.

What is your OAL?

This is it. Ensure your OAL fits your chamber, not the gauge. I have a Ruger SR1911 CMD that won't tolerate much more than a thumbnail thickness of the bearing surface outside the case. If OAL length is fitting your chamber and you're still having feeding issues, other things will have to be looked at.

 

[Blue68f100]

If your running below minimum you can run into operational problems with simi-autos. Bump the charge up in 0.1 gr increments till you get proper function. The other option if you want to run low charges is to change the recoil spring. Doing this will hammer the gun when you shoot full power.

 

[LiveLife]

I'm making the assumption that there isn't sufficient pressure to properly chamber the next round after the spent case has been ejected.

So before we address the reload, let's check the recoil spring weakness first.

Clear the pistol and point the muzzle at the ceiling and pull back on the slide. Then slowly return the slide until about one inch before return to full battery and let go. If the slide does not readily return to full battery and hesitates, your recoil spring may be worn and needs replacement.

If the recoil spring is worn and you don't have a replacement handy, you could try stretching the spring a bit and see if the return to battery improves.

If the return to battery is not an issue, let's continue.

I'm trying Vihtavouri powder for the first time.

45ACP 230 TMJ RN (Berry's) with N340. Using my Speer guidelines for this bullet weight and powder, I've loaded it with 5.7gr of N340. The VV guidelines for this powder and 45 ACP start at 5.8 grains.

As others posted, OAL is crucial for low pressure .45ACP when using lower/start charges to reliably cycle the slide.

Here's VihtaVuori load data - https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/handgun-reloading/?cartridge=52

230 gr LOS plated RN VihtaVuori N340 OAL 1.220" Start 5.8 gr (820 fps) - Max 6.6 gr (961 fps)


And here's Speer load data - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...liber_451-454_dia/45_Automatic_230_TMJ_RN.pdf

230 gr Speer TMJ RN Vihtavuori N340 OAL 1.260" Start 5.5 gr (750 fps) - Max 6.3 gr (876 fps)


As to loading plated bullets with rounded base like Berry's, I have found the rounded base leaks more gas and may require .1 - .2 gr+ more from start charge to reliably cycle the slide (Thick plated Speer TMJ has dished concave base that captures gas better). Since you are using Berry's bullet with rounded base and not Speer TMJ, especially if using longer OAL like 1.260", I would increase the powder charge until slide reliably cycled.

 

[243winxb]

The COL is to long or more taper crimp is needed.

Not a light load if-
1. Slide locks back on last shot.
2. A round is loaded from the magazine every time.

 

[mljdeckard]

I have three different .45 1911s. One of them, a Para-Ordnance, just will not cycle my handloads. After arguing with the crimp, using the factory crimp die, different bullets, case gauge, different bullets, etc, it just doesn't like them. I have resigned myself to the fact that it is the gun I use to shoot factory ammo to make brass to reload for my other .45s, particularly my Kimber, which will eat anything.

Edit: The problem is that they fail to feed and go into battery.

I am guessing it's a combination of a very tight match chamber and maybe an extractor that could be loosened up a little.

 

[LiveLife]

about every third round the gun doesn't go into battery with the round.

I've used a Lyman case guage so I know the round will chamber properly. Also use Wilson combat mags, which don't give me any trouble with other reloaded 45ACP.

I just read this.

If other reloads fully chamber without issues, I would inspect the rim for damage/burr/roughness that may prevent the rim from freely sliding up the extractor.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

The COL is to long or more taper crimp is needed.

Not a light load if-
1. Slide locks back on last shot.
2. A round is loaded from the magazine every time.

That^^^. Plus you said your loading at 5.7gr when minimum is 5.8. My first suspicion based on your information would be the load is too light. Bump it up and retest.

 

[fxvr5]

As to loading plated bullets with rounded base like Berry's, I have found the rounded base leaks more gas and may require .1 - .2 gr+ more from start charge to reliably cycle the slide (Thick plated Speer TMJ has dished concave base that captures gas better).

How are you determining that the Berry bullet leaks more gas?

 

[LiveLife]

How are you determining that the Berry bullet leaks more gas?

Just that rounded plated bullet base tends to leak more gas compared to FMJ or other types of bullets. Of course, this is just my opinion based on my experience only in my pistols.

Your experience may vary.

 

[LiveLife]

your loading at 5.7gr when minimum is 5.8. My first suspicion based on your information would be the load is too light. Bump it up and retest.

+1. Since some of the reloads are going into battery and some are not, OP could be right at the threshold of reliable slide cycling.

about every third round the gun doesn't go into battery with the round.

As other members suggested, I think trying higher powder charge would be a good idea if the recoil spring is not worn.

 

[fxvr5]

Just that rounded plated bullet base tends to leak more gas compared to FMJ or other types of bullets.

I don't understand how you're measuring/assessing leaking gas. Can you please explain? Thanks.

Edited to add: If I want to measure gas leaking in my gun with different bullets, how would I do that? Thanks.

 

[Virginia Jim]

Does the slide lock open when the last round is fired?

 

[LiveLife]

I don't understand how you're measuring/assessing leaking gas. Can you please explain?

Ability to reliably cycle the slide.

 

[fxvr5]

Ability to reliably cycle the slide.

I see. You're not measuring gas leakage. You're observing whether the slide reliably cycles and calling it gas leakage. Got it.

One could say that if you're going to attribute something to gas leakage, then you should actually measure gas leakage, i.e. the amount of gas that leaks/passes around the bullet during the firing process. Without that information, you can't say if there is gas leakage or not.

 

[gerrym526]

Guys,

Thanks for all the input, and what to check.

I'm using the Speer data shown by Linux Mint-COL is 1.260, and powder load is 5.7gr.

The first thing I'm going to check is the "plunk test", as this is the first time I've used the Lyman case gauge. Have always used the "plunk test" with the barrel in the past.

If it's sticky with the test, I'll start to adjust the crimp to make it heavier.

At this point I'm positive it's not the recoil spring, as the gun functioned perfectly a couple of weeks ago with 230gr RN loaded with Bullseye.

Will post what happens after the "plunk test". If it works, I'll probably bump up the load a little.

Like others here, I've had guns that wouldn't shoot anything but factory ammo reliably, but this 1911 is a 70 Series Gold Cup, and the only projectiles that wouldn't feed reliably for me were LSWC.

 

[cfullgraf]

At this point I'm positive it's not the recoil spring, as the gun functioned perfectly a couple of weeks ago with 230gr RN loaded with Bullseye.

As a side comment and not directly related to your problem with going into battery, if you are shooting 230 FMJ ammunition in your Gold Cup, you should make sure you have a 16 lb recoil spring, the standard for 230 hardball ammunition or an 18 lb recoil spring. The springs are inexpensive and they are difficult to measure what the spring rate is so it is best and easy to just buy a new one.

If it has a light recoil spring in it, and you shoot 230 FMJ full power ammunition, you risk damaging your gun.

My Gold Cup NM came with two recoil springs, one foir light ammunition, one for 230 RN ammunition.

 

[Walkalong]

Whenever you have function issues and you are under minimum on the powder charge the first thing to try is bump it up within the data.

Making the taper crimp heavier/tighter to make it "pass" the plunk test isn't the way to go IMHO.

Shortening the OAL should make the round pass at some point.

At this point I'm positive it's not the recoil spring, as the gun functioned perfectly a couple of weeks ago with 230gr RN loaded with Bullseye.

Bingo.

 

[Slamfire]

I'm using the Speer data shown by Linux Mint-COL is 1.260, and powder load is 5.7gr.

Seat your bullets to 1.250". I have had failures to go into battery with ammunition that fed, chambered, fired perfectly in other 45 ACP's. The problem was, the OAL was too long for the pistol which slide would not go into battery. Probably something to do with the reamer and throat dimensions. So, seat your bullets deeper and absolutely ignore advice about seating the bullet out so the case end is flush with the hood. That will cause a failure to go into battery when crud builds up in the chamber. There needs to be some clearance between the bullet and throat for best function reliability. There also needs to be clearance between the case and chamber or the round will stick on extraction and cause a failure to eject.

Bench rest rifle practices, especially the one about seating to the lands, has absolutely no place in 45 ACP semi automatics. I think that is where the idea of seating the bullet so far out that the base lines up with the barrel hood came from. My 1911's are controlled round feeds, in fact, I would be interesting in what 45ACP's are not controlled round feeds. As long as the rim is behind the extractor, it is not going too far forward.

 

[LiveLife]

I see. You're not measuring gas leakage. You're observing whether the slide reliably cycles and calling it gas leakage. Got it.

One could say that if you're going to attribute something to gas leakage, then you should actually measure gas leakage, i.e. the amount of gas that leaks/passes around the bullet during the firing process. Without that information, you can't say if there is gas leakage or not.

It's been my experience that when compared to same weight and nose profile lead bullets, plated bullets with rounded base will require higher powder charge to reliably cycle the slide. Sure, the lead bullets are sized .001" larger but nonetheless, it is my "guess" that more gas leaks around the plated bullet, which IMO is a full-length gas checked lead bullet.

Yes, I am not measuring gas leakage and have no means to measure gas leakage but correlating the need for higher powder charge to lower chamber pressures likely from "gas leakage" as smaller diameter plated/jacketed load data tends to have higher start charges than larger diameter lead load data. If it is not gas leakage, what would require smaller diameter plated bullets to require higher powder charges than larger sized lead bullets to reliably cycle the slide?

And I don't want to hijack this thread. So if you want to discuss the virtues of gas leakage, we can discuss it in a new thread if you so choose to start.

 

[LiveLife]

I'm using the Speer data shown by [LiveLife] - COL is 1.260

There needs to be some clearance between the bullet and throat for best function reliability.

+1.

We never recommend using OAL listed in load data when using a different bullet as we recommend determining the Max OAL using the barrel and Working OAL by feeding/chambering dummy rounds from the magazine. And depending on the pistol/barrel used, if leade length is shorter, you may need to use shorter OAL as illustrated in this reference thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...let-max-working-oal-col-for-reference.848462/

My Sig 1911 has no leade and require shorter 1.245" OAL for some FMJ/RN profile bullets.

 

[fxvr5]

It's been my experience that when compared to same weight and nose profile lead bullets, plated bullets with rounded base will require higher powder charge to reliably cycle the slide. Sure, the lead bullets are sized .001" larger but nonetheless, it is my "guess" that more gas leaks around the plated bullet, which IMO is a full-length gas checked lead bullet.

Yes, I am not measuring gas leakage and have no means to measure gas leakage but correlating the need for higher powder charge to lower chamber pressures likely from "gas leakage" as smaller diameter plated/jacketed load data tends to have higher start charges than larger diameter lead load data. If it is not gas leakage, what would require smaller diameter plated bullets to require higher powder charges than larger sized lead bullets to reliably cycle the slide?

There are other things that can affect the strength of the recoil impulse. For example, friction, velocity, length of bearing surface, bullet hardness, seating depth. Plated bullets tend to shoot slower than cast bullets. Recoil force is determined by 3 things; bullet weight, bullet velocity and charge weight. If the bullet is slow because of its construction, it will produce less recoil force.

Many plated bullets are oversized, and that includes Berry's, whose 45 bullets are .452, the same as the common cast bullet.

 

[Slamfire]

Plated bullets do shoot slower than cast and that must be taken into account on low power rounds or malfunctions will occur. I have tested my Bullseye Pistol ammunition to determine accuracy and reliable function. The good shooters told me that I needed to push a 200 gr LSWC just at 740 fps for best 50 yard accuracy. However Clark, recommended in a 1950's article, 3.5 grains for 25 yard timed and rapid fire.

M1911 Les Baer Wadcutter new 13 lb recoil spring

200 LSWC (H&G 68 type) 3.5 grs Bullseye Lot 919 11/2005 WLP Brass mixed cases
OAL 1.250" Taper Crimp 0.469"

23-Mar-16 T = 69 °F

Ave Vel = 664.9
Std Dev = 16.18
ES = 51.71
High = 686.1
Low = 63.3
Number rounds= 8

stove pipes, would not latch slide

200 LSWC (H&G 68 type) 3.5 grs Bullseye Lot 919 11/2005 WLP Nickle, mixed cases
OAL 1.250" Taper Crimp 0.469"

8-Jun-15 T = 91 °F

Ave Vel = 660.6
Std Dev = 16.37
ES = 60.28
High = 695.6
Low = 635.3
N = 22

Classic Bullseye pistol 25 yard Rapid fire load. Functioned every round hot weather , light recoil, accurate However, in cold weather, failures to eject. Likely reason, Ultradot and mount added weight to the slide and the load does not have the power to function when temperatures drop.

200 LSWC (H&G 68 type) 3.8 grs Bullseye Lot 919 11/2005 WLP Nickle, mixed cases
OAL 1.250" Taper Crimp 0.469" oiled cases

8-Jun-15 T = 91 °F

Ave Vel = 714.4
Std Dev = 17.17
ES = 77.2
High = 755.1
Low = 677.9
N = 30

accurate

200 LSWC (H&G 68 type) 4.0 grs Bullseye Lot 907 6/20/2005 WLP Brass mixed cases
OAL 1.250" Taper Crimp 0.469" oiled cases

23-Mar-16 T = 69 °F

Ave Vel = 723.3
Std Dev = 9.48
ES = 28.65
High = 741.6
Low = 712.9
N = 10

200 LSWC (H&G 68 type) 4.0 grs Bullseye Lot 919 11/2005 WLP Nickle, mixed cases
OAL 1.250" Taper Crimp 0.469" oiled cases

8-Jun-15 T = 91 °F

Ave Vel = 742.9
Std Dev = 9.89
ES = 33.19
High = 760.6
Low = 727.5
N = 20

accurate

Notice the difference in velocity between Lot 919 and Lot 907. This is real and no doubt within specs for Hercules powders. But, it made a difference in function reliability. Since my load is lowest recoiling load I can reasonably shoot accurately, it turns out it is marginal in function to unreliable in ejection when the ammunition loaded with lot 907 Bullseye is used in cool weather. Even when the cases are lubricated to reduce friction between case and chamber. The end result was, I bumped up the load with the slower lot 907 from 4.0 grains to 4.1 grains. And everything functioned fine this year in all the weather conditions I fired the ammunition. I shot up the 4.0 grs of lot 907 successfully by not leaving the can out in the vehicle to get cold over night, transporting it in the cab, under the heater, and leaving the can out in the sunlight to warm up.

These plated bullets did take more powder to function the pistol. I have been using them during 25 yard timed and rapid fire. I am trying to reduce the amount of lead blown out in front of my face, considering everyone else is shooting lead this may or many not actually do anything, but this is my rabbit's foot. What I did find was that plated bullets take more powder to function the pistol for the same bullet weight.

200 Xtreme Plated SWC 3.7 grs Bullseye Lot 907 6-20-2005 WLP Brass mixed cases
OAL 1.250" Taper Crimp 0.469" oiled cases

23-Mar-16 T = 72 °F

Ave Vel = 651.7
Std Dev = 11.66
ES = 40.03
High = 676.9
Low = 636.9
N = 14

all ejected, slide failed to lock back once


200 Xtreme Plated SWC 4.0 grs Bullseye Lot 907 6-20-2005 WLP Brass mixed cases
OAL 1.250" Taper Crimp 0.469" oiled cases

23-Mar-16 T = 72 °F

Ave Vel = 686.8
Std Dev = 26.32
ES = 91.37
High = 730.4
Low = 639.1
N = 14

accurate, functioned and slide locked back



While I thought 4.0 grains of Lot 907 was the load with plated bullets, I had too many failures to eject, even with oiled cases, in marginal conditions. Fourteen rounds is a limited sample size, but start to shoot through an ammo box of reloads, and the unreliable rounds will start appearing. I slowly bumped up the charge, to 4.1 grains Bullseye, then to 4.2 grains Bullseye with the plated bullet before function hit an acceptable reliability. With the all ready loaded ammunition, I massively increased the crimp on the bullet, by recrimping loaded rounds, and that seemed to help function. Once I shot all the old ammunition I bumped up the powder charge and went back to my regular crimp. I have not chronographed 4.2 grains Bullseye with my plated bullets, but it is of little matter because I am getting the function I want. I have about a half keg of lot 907 left, so maybe I need to test the next keg against lot 907 and make decisions for the new load with the new powder lot.

What I did learn was, on the low end, these plated bullets take more powder for reliable function than the plain cast bullets. I cannot say plated bullets are any more or less accurate than plated, because I am such a horrible Bullseye shooter, but they provide acceptable accuracy for me at 25 yards.

 

[LiveLife]

Plated bullets do shoot slower than cast and that must be taken into account on low power rounds or malfunctions will occur.

... plated bullets did take more powder to function the pistol ... What I did find was that plated bullets take more powder to function the pistol for the same bullet weight.

Your experience is similar to mine that same bullet weight and profile plated bullets required more powder to reliably cycle the slide.

Here's your test data with "brass" cases:

• 200 LSWC (H&G 68 type) OAL 1.250" 3.5 grs Bullseye Ave Vel = 664.9
• 200 LSWC (H&G 68 type) OAL 1.250" 4.0 grs Bullseye Ave Vel = 723.3

• 200 Xtreme Plated SWC OAL 1.250" 3.7 grs Bullseye Ave Vel = 651.7
• 200 Xtreme Plated SWC OAL 1.250" 4.0 grs Bullseye Ave Vel = 686.8

4.0 grains ... with plated bullets, I had too many failures to eject ... I slowly bumped up the charge, to 4.1 grains Bullseye, then to 4.2 grains Bullseye with the plated bullet before function hit an acceptable reliability.

What I did learn was, on the low end, these plated bullets take more powder for reliable function than the plain cast bullets.

Thank you for sharing your test data.