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Loading 9mm for 995 Carbine with slow powder results in impressive performance boost.

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Crosshair, Feb 21, 2006.

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  1. Crosshair

    Crosshair Member

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    This load data is from the first round of testing and is still experimental, use at your own risk.

    I have just finished testing some of my 9mm reloads in my Hi-Point 995 carbine. I wondered if a person could improve the performance of the 9mm by using slower powders in compressed loads to take advantage of the longer 16" barrel. From what I have found out the answer is yes, and quite a dramatic improvement as well. Here is the chrono data. I recorded the chrono output with my video camera and wrote down the numbers afterwards. Made for much faster testing.

    My reloads: CCI small pistol primer, 115 grain Winchster HP bullets, and range pickup 9mm brass. (All numbers are in FPS.) Temp was about 15F. Chronograph was about 4 feet from the muzzle.

    7.5 Blue Dot

    1599
    1640
    1640
    1620
    1650
    1569
    1549
    1580
    1608

    8.0 Blue Dot

    1590
    1735
    1687
    1653
    1607
    1673
    1691

    8.5 Blue Dot (Max non +P load)

    1838
    1719
    1817
    1763
    1694
    1724
    1649
    I have come to find that the 995 really hates hard primers like CCI and the result is haphazard ignition. Several round did not ignite on the first try and I removed them from the testing. I will probably use soft primers (Like Federal) when I try again. Below is standard factory 9mm being fired from my 995

    Wolf 115 grain FMJ

    1232
    1251
    1282
    1263
    1285
    1293
    1263
    1295
    1325
    1290
    1263
    1247
    1295
    1282
    1275​

    My 995 hates the hard primers in Wolf as well.

    Winchester White Box 115 grain FMJ

    1284
    1271
    1307
    1294
    1312
    1280
    1317
    1344
    1301
    1330​

    This ammo is 100% reliable in my 995.

    From the results I have seen, it is possible to get the 9mm to almost achieve .357 Magnum handgun performance while not exceeding SAAMI spec on the 9mm if slower powders are used. I believe that the performance increase will be the same in other brands of 9mm carbines like the Kel-Tec and Beretta. I hope to explore and experiment further with different powders and OAL to find the best loads for autoloader carbines.

    Your thoughts?
     
  2. BillinNH

    BillinNH Member

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    Very impressive results. Many thanks for the report and hard work.

    How did the bullets hold up to the greater velocity?

    Do you plan to work up slow powder carbine loads for any other caliber, eg, 45acp?

    I have Marlin Camp carbins in 9mm and 45acp, Keltec Sub2K in 9mm, Hi point in 9mm, will get a hi point in 45 as soon as available.

    Please post any future results. You might want to post a pointer to this in the Rifles section.

    Bill
     
  3. renaissance

    renaissance Member

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    Interesting but to what purpose?

    Likely a combination of:
    Longer Barrel
    and
    Cold Weather
    ( Fifteen Degrees ???? Wow ! )

    I would not want to shoot under those conditions to get
    " 10 Pounds of anything into a 5 Pound bag "
     
  4. Charles S

    Charles S Member

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    It has been my experience that really cold temperatures produce slower velocities and lower pressures.

    Some great info. I would really like to see what you can do with a good 124 grain bullet. I like Blue Dot as a pistol powder in my BHP.

    Charles
     
  5. Crosshair

    Crosshair Member

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    This was the first test so I was only looking at the velocity of the loads. The next step will be to test terminal performance as well as accuracy. I feel long range performance will be better due to the flater trajectory. 100 yards is easy with factory ammo in my carbine.

    I am thinking the same thing Charles S, while the numbers are great, I feel better performance could be had by using a heavier bullet at lower velocity. I bought a bag of remington 124 grain HPs for this next step. I also need to stop by Cabelas and get some Federal primers so I can eliminate the hard primer problem I currently have.

    I too plan on getting a 45 carbine as well BillinNH The only problem with the 45 Auto is that there is not as much powder capacity to play around with. Not that I would step down from a challenge like that.:D After I perfect the 9mm loads I think I will move up to the 40 S&W and do the 45 Auto last. I will probably not be able to do a comprehensive test of all powders due to time and cost limitations. However I hope I can at least give other people a starting point if they wish to develop loads using other slow burning pistol powders.
     
  6. grendelbane

    grendelbane Member

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    My suggestion is to experiment with Alliant Power Pistol.

    I would also suggest heavier bullets if your intended target is larger than a groundhog. The lightweight bullets do indeed go faster, but the heavier bullets are more accurate in my AR-15 carbine, and are longer, which better suits my too tight twist.

    Lots of room for experimentation in this arena. I have loaded 147 grain bullets in 9mm cases to a higher velocity than factory W-W 145 grain Silvertips from my 6" Ruger. 10" of extra barrel can make up for much of the .357 mag's higher powder capacity.

    Not exactly an apples and oranges comparison, but still an interesting one, I think.
     
  7. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    I have often wondered what a slower powder would do in a 9mm carbine. I load a very hot Unique load, though, that is compressed and never figured you could get enough blue dot or 2400 into such a small case to do any good, but I guess you can. :D

    However, it's no .357. My .357 carbine loads push a 180 grain JHP to over 1600 fps and my 158 grain casted, gas checked bullet is clocking just shy if 1900fps, this with 2400. W296 can produce slightly better speed in that caliber.

    That 9mm load would be a good one for survival in the wild, though. I mean, if you had to, you could take a deer with it. I wouldn't hunt with it, of course, but it gives the little 9mm carbines a little more usefulness I reckon. The neat thing about the little Hi Point carbine and the 9mm cal, though, is the cheap ammo. Great plinker with more snap than any rimfire. Your loads sort of remind me of the M1 Carbine ballistically, actually, bigger bullet, a bit less velocity.

    Thanks for the info. I have all the components and if I get a 9mm carbine, I WILL remember this load data.;)
     
  8. Crosshair

    Crosshair Member

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    MCgunner

    Yea, I could not find any good info about the 9mm with slow powders in a carbine barrel so I decided to go blaze my own trail. I agree that heavier bullets will be the direction to go, I just used the 115 grain bullets for a starting point. Just to clarify, the reloads out of my carbine are near .357 HANDGUN performance. .357 in a carbine will still kick the 9mm eight days a week.:p An interesting thing I may want to research is dual purpose loads that perform well in a handgun with minimal muzzle flash while still giving the improved performance in a carbine much like there are loads that work very well for both .357 rifles and handguns. While the slow loads may work great in a handgun I still want to minimise the flash that results from the slow powder.
     
  9. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    I don't wan't to sound sour, but I seem to remember reading in the manual that a chronograph will give erronious readings below 40 degrees. I've chronographed the infamous Hertenburger +P+ ammo in my 995 and it was nowhere near as fast as the readings you've listed
     
  10. Travis Two

    Travis Two member

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    Not surprising as Blue Dot was the original spec powder for the 9mm NATO loads. Dean Grennel in ABC's of reloading got some impressive results in a 9mm carbine using WW748.
     
  11. wolf_from_wv

    wolf_from_wv Member

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  12. Crosshair

    Crosshair Member

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    Hmm, Yes I see after looking that the operating temperature for my chronograph is 32F to 110F. However I have chronographed the Wolf ammo when it was 60F out in the past and the velocity results where nearly the same. As for the Hertenburger +P+ ammo, from what I understand, that ammo was still loaded with rather fast powder compared to what I am using, IIRC that ammo used powder in the AA #5 burn rate, Blue Dot is much slower. Peak pressure is not that important compared to the pressure curve. Further testing (as it gets warmer) should show if is really is the Chrono.
     
  13. 444

    444 Member

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    This is all very interesting. I would really enjoy seeing further results as well as constructive comments by others who have played with this.

    I would like to see you play around with Power Pistol also.
    Actually, I should jump in and start conducting my own experiments again. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=45283&highlight=Chrono
    Note that your Blue Dot loads are WAY hotter than the one I tried (not sure why I used that charge now.)
    What about +P loads, you say that 8.5 grains is non-+P ?
    The hottest load listed on the Alliant website is 8.0 grains of Blue Dot. The load they list using Power Pistol is giving them 90 FPS more velocity than the Blue Dot load. But, it doesn't say if these loads are max loads, suggested loads, or what. No, actually way back at the beginning, it says "DO NOT EXCEED THE LOADS DISPLAYED ON THE SITE OR ALLIANT'S RELOADERS GUIDE" So, I dunno.

    I was about to jump all over you about that .357 comment but you have seen the error of your ways.
    Your 9mm loads are approaching .30 Carbine performance, out of a carbine.
    I get over 1900 fps out of a 6 1/2" .357 Blackhawk and a 110 grain bullet. Out of a .357 Carbine, forget about it.
     
  14. Crosshair

    Crosshair Member

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    I was using the Speer #13 reloading manual for my reloading data. They list the maximum load as 8.5 grains. I was not aware that Alliant only listed max load at 8 grains. That is interesting.
     
  15. 444

    444 Member

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    Well, I don't have an actual Alliant manual. That is just the one and only load they list on their website. That is why I said that I dunno. They don't list a range of safe charges, they just list one load (with that powder). So, I don't know if that is a max load, or a suggested load. I don't know if that load is +P or not.
    What is the SAMMI max pressure for 9mm Luger ?
    Here is the link to the Alliant website data: http://recipes.alliantpowder.com/rg...=9mm&cartridgedescr=Luger&bulletdescr=115 FMJ

    Here is the link for Power Pistol: http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/power_pistol.php
    "Remarks: Best choice for high performance 9mm, .40 S&W and 10mm"

    FWIW, I checked a number of on-line powder burn rate charts and they all show Blue Dot as being a far slower burning powder than Power Pistol.
     
  16. The_Antibubba

    The_Antibubba Member

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    The HiPoint is a fun little gun, but is it up to a possible increase in pressure?
     
  17. Crosshair

    Crosshair Member

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    All Hi-Point 9mm guns are rated for use with +P+. However I am trying for the time to stay within non-+P load data.
     
  18. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    As per the owners manual and Hi-Points website, all Hi-Points are +p and +P+ rated.
     
  19. therealsteamer

    therealsteamer Member

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    4 years ago I had to send my 996 carbine back to the factory due to the slide having two rather long cracks in the metal on either side of the firing pin channel. They replaced the slide and all other components that could have been compromised. They said that it was because I had been shooting loads of Wolf ammo, they enlightened me that Wolf was loaded way too hot and recommended that I shoot Blazer aluminum case exclusively.

    That being said, since recieving the gun back I have had NO real problems what so ever. I have shot small batches of +p Gold Dot, a few thousand rounds of Wolf, thousands of WWB, a large mix of others, and probly close to 5k of mid/hot reloads. I have had no other issues other than some expected wear on the bottom of the slide.

    This will be an interesting thread to watch. I have been using Unique about 98% of the time and have recently been trying some Green Dot. Anyone have zinger loads for this powder.

    Steamer
     
  20. mbartel

    mbartel Member

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    Do I understand you correctly? Do you think the 9mm has more powder capacity than the .45 acp? The way that you worded your post, indicates that you think the .45 acp has less powder capacity than the 9mm. Of course, the .45 has MUCH more powder capacity than the little 9mm.
     
  21. Crosshair

    Crosshair Member

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    Sorry mbartel. I meant that the 45 ACP does not have as much case capacity for the weight of bullet and quantity of slow burning powder that I currently think I will need for a significant boost in performance. (However, the proof is in the pudding so I will of course test that theory given the chance.)

    The 9mm Luger round using a 115 grain bullet has a case volume to bullet weight ratio (Case volume / bullet weight) of 0.008435.

    A 124 grain bullet has a ratio of 0.007823.

    The mighty 45 Auto with a regular 230 grain bullet has a ratio of only 0.004957.

    While there is loading data for use with slower powders. (I love my Lee loading manual) I am worried that there will not be enough case capacity for the bullet weight to give increases in perfomance that I have seen with my 9mm loads. I will still try of course given the chance. I just don't think there will be as large a performance boost as I have seen with my 9mm loads. I really want to get out to the range again, but the weather up here has been really lousy lately.
     
  22. mbartel

    mbartel Member

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    Crosshair-

    I see where you are going with it.....but there is another factor to consider.
    The cross sectional area of the bullet's base. Remember pounds per square inch? Well the more square inches of bullet base, the more total force is used to accelerate that bullet at any given chamber pressure. This will apply to straight walled cases only. For example: at equal pressure ratings, and equal case lengths, the .357 magnum is surpassed by the .41 mag, and the 41 mag is surpassed by the .44 mag, and the .44 mag is surpassed by the .45 colt, and the .45 colt is surpassed by the .50 AE. in foot pounds of energy, if all are loaded to the same chamber pressure. It doesn't matter which bullet weights are used. The total force exerted on the inside of a .44 mag case, is way more than the total force exerted on the inside of the .357 mag case at equal chamber pressures....it's POUNDS PER SQUARE INCH...that's the key phrase. And because of the large increase in TOTAL internal pressure, the .44 mag produces the corresponding increase in power (muzzle energy).

    So.........in a straight walled case, case volume to bullet base area is a very significant ratio in predicting performance increases. Probably more so than just case volume to bullet weight by itself.
     
  23. Crosshair

    Crosshair Member

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    Hmm, I see your point. I failed to consider that aspect. As I said, there is no substitute for live fire testing. Imput like yours is very helpfull. Though now I have alot of math to do, thanks alot.:uhoh: :neener:
     
  24. Crosshair

    Crosshair Member

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    124 Grain bullets are loaded and ready for testing.

    I have finaly goten around to loading the 124 grain Winchester HPs for testing. I used 8 grains of Blue Dot loaded to aprox 1.145 OAL. I hope to get out to the range soon to test their performance.
     
  25. mbartel

    mbartel Member

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    Keep us posted on your test results. Your data will be especially interesting to those who have longer barreled carbines...9mm, .40, & .45acp.
     
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