Loading for .45ACP Revolver, roll or taper?

[20nickels]

Loading for .45ACP Revolver. I have never reloaded before, but am now the proud owner of a refurbished Hornaday L-N-L progressive and their standard set of .45 ACP dies.
After doing some reading I think I may have the wrong dies. Do I want to roll crimp for .45 ACP revolver or taper crimp? Will this set do the trick or do I need .45 Colt die? The dies are unused I can still return them. Thanks ahead of time.

 

[cdrt]

I taper crimp my .45 ACPs for my S&W Model 25 so I can shoot them without having to mess with half or full moon clips. Also, I can then use the same load in my 1911 Govt Model. Makes things a lot easier.
A .45 Colt die won't solve your problem; wrong cartridge. You can just buy a taper crimp die separately if you want for the .45 ACP.

 

[20nickels]

Hi, CDRT. I don't own any autos. Do you get any bullets coming loose? Most everything will be on moonclips, but occasionally will use autorim brass I imagine. What do you think roll or not?

 

[cdrt]

I've never had a problem with taper crimping. You can set your roll crimp on "the light side" since the .45 doesn't recoil like a .44 Mag. I've never had any bullets come loose.

I taper crimp so the diameter across the case mouth measures between .470 and .472. You can set your roll crimp to do the same thing and they should be okay, especially with lead bullets.

 

[ReloaderFred]

You should be able to taper crimp your .45's just fine. As mentioned, a .45 revolver doesn't have a lot of recoil, so there's not much danger of the bullets moving forward in the cylinder, as long as there is some crimp on them.

Years ago, I had a S&W Model 25-2, in .45 acp. I ran all kinds of lead and jacketed bullets through it with a taper crimp and never had any problems.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Hazzard]

If your revolver is a Ruger Blackhawk, you will need to taper crimp as it headspaces on the case mouth the same as a semi-auto. If it uses half moon clips, headspace will be set by the position of the clip on the cylinder and a roll crimp will work. A light roll crimp will be fine.

 

[20nickels]

The 3 Die set is; "Hornaday Custom-Grade New Dimension Dies 45 ACP/AR/WIN" Series 2 Item# 546554. It looks like these should taper just as discussed then. This Smith 625 is a gorgeous piece and will mostly see mild target loads. I do want to load some bricks into this big bore after I get familiar with loading I would think it would shoot .45 Supers without a hiccup, after all I have seen 460 Rowland conversions for the 625 revolver.

 

[cdrt]

I shoot 185 grain SWC lead bullets out of my Model 25 with a light 3.5 grain Bullseye load. Very pleasant and accurate. The load will work with either ACP brass or Auto Rim brass.

 

[wally]

I prefer taper crimp as it tends to work the brass less over a larger area.

Although I think bullseye shooters will tell you a roll crimp is more consistent and thus usually more accurate as the thickness of the brass has less influence.

--wally.

 

[cdrt]

Although I think bullseye shooters will tell you a roll crimp is more consistent and thus usually more accurate as the thickness of the brass has less influence.

Most of the Bullseye shooters out our way taper crimp. The .45 ACP does headspace on the case mouth, even though there is some inter-action with the extractor (like with the .38 Super). IMHO taper crimping is more consistent and you don't work the brass as much, which results in longer case use, especially since most are shooting pretty light loads. If you roll crimp you're depending on the extractor to keep the cartridge from seating too far in the chamber rather than the chamber itself.

I'm still working on a bunch of WCC brass from the '70's. Will get a split case once in a while, but some have been reloaded so many times, the headstamp is hard to read.

 

[sargenv]

If you roll crimp you're depending on the extractor to keep the cartridge from seating too far in the chamber rather than the chamber itself.

This would be true in a semi-auto.. but the question was posed for a revolver

While I don't use a 45 acp revolver, I do shoot a 610 which is the same frame but in 40 cal. I use 40 S&W brass since it's dirt cheap compared to the 10 mm. Until you try doing both for yourself with say 100 pieces of virgin brass for each method, it's going to mostly be speculation anyway. Some roll crimp, others taper. Until you run the numbers and do the work yourself, there really is no way to be positive. Your gun might like a roll crimp, his might like a taper. There is no real hard and fast answer. Can you use a taper? Sure, that's probably the die that came with your set since most people loading for 45 acp are loading for a semi-auto.

 

[cdrt]

If y'all go back and read my first post, I was talking about taper crimping, since it allows you to shoot .45 ACPs without having to use full or half moon clips.

If you're going to use full or half moon clips, rather than chambering them without a clip of some sort, I don't have a problem with roll crimping for a .45 ACP revolver.

 

[ZBill]

25-2 Do I have to use moon clips?

picked up a new to me 25-2 today and was going to take it to the range tomorrow and use my .45 ACP reloads with 230 gr. FMJ bullets. Loaded with the 3 die Lee set. I don't know if these are tapered or roll crimped. What would the 3 die set result in? Do I have to use the moon clips? Hope not as I don't have any. How when using factory ammo?

Thanks, Bill

 

[JoeHatley]

Yes, you really should use moon clips. Your gun may shoot the .45 acp ammo without them, but it can't extract and the headspace may be excessive.

The Lee 3 die set comes with a crimping die that does both a taper and roll crimp. The amount or roll is based on your die adjustment.

Good Luck...

Joe

 

[CZ57]

20nickels: you can use a roll crimp for revolver loads. REDDING makes the profile crimp die that does both, also. It might be listed for the .45 Auto Rim. In older manuals that were with us before taper crimp dies were, I have even seen recommendations for a very slight roll crimp for use in .45 ACP autoloaders that headspace on the casemouth, explaining that it can't be so much as to affect headspace. Using moon clips takes care of the headspace requirement in a revolver designed to use them.

 

[cloudcroft]

20nickels,

Roll crimp for revolvers, taper crimp for autos.

It's that simple...always has been.

-- John D.

 

[cdrt]

Unless you're shooting 9mm's from a Ruger Blackhawk single action or if you want to do what I mentioned in thread # 2 of this post.

Roll crimping vs taper crimping can't be reduced to an absolute based on the firearm used. As CZ57 mentions, in my old American Rifleman reprint of the .45 Automatic, they recommend a slight roll crimp so that the diameter across the case mouth is .460 on the completed round. I taper crimp my .45s so they measure between .470 and .472.

Who's right...whichever one works for you and shoots well and is safe.

And ZBill, you can shoot .45 ACPs out of your Model 25-2 without full moon or half moon clips, especially when using factory ammo. The case will headspace okay; you just have to use a fingernail to remove them from the cylinder or you can poke them out from the front with a pencil. If you taper crimp them to factory specs, the same applies.

 

[20nickels]

Yes you can shoot without moonclips, but you need a heavy DA trigger pull to insure reliable ignition especially considering the many different brands of 45 ACP ammo brass with slightly different tolerances. Then there is the issue of primer softness and how large the sweet spot is in it, I've heard Federal ignites the easiest.
The vast majority of my shooting will be done with clips, probably the thickest I can find . The trigger job is done, the Miculek springs are in the pistol, I've dry fired till my finger fell off, this honey is ready to run
I just need one set of dies that will fit my needs for a wide power range of ammo WITH moonclips. I'm sure the Hornadays I own now and specified in the above post will work for most shooting needs with this gun. However they are new and unused yet and I can still return them if If I believe roll crimping will allow me high power loads without shaking the ammo apart in the cylinder as I've heard they can do. I'm just trying to make an informed discision instead of having to buy 2 sets of dies. Let's face it, this stuff is not cheap!

Cheers,
nickels

 

[ranger335v]

Basic answer is; Roll crimp rimmed cases, taper crimp rimless cases.

Those revolvers using moon clips changes things in that the clips are effecively providing a substitute rim. Ammo for them may be taper OR roll crimped!

I'd taper crimp it all just in case I wanted to shoot some in an auto loader at later time.

 

[ZBill]

Worked fine without moon clips

my 25-2 worked just fine without moon clips. I fired a variety of factory ammo and reloads. I would call them taper crimp as there is no evident "roll' visible, just as the factory ammo appears. These were 230 gr FMJ. I checked all primers and there were strong strkes on all of them. Very pleased with my new revolver. I'll get some clips anyway to see if there is any accuracy difference. Thanks for the assistance, Bill

 

[CZ57]

I agree with cdrt's last post. You have the option of doing what will work best here. There is no hard fast rule. While the statement that roll crimping is for revolvers and taper crimping is for autoloaders is accepted general practice, it is not absolute. Many revolver shooters taper crimp lighter target loads to ensure concentric tension with less emphasis on bullet pull. Taper crimp dies have not always been included in die sets. Hornady just started including them in their die sets within the last 6 or 7 years. Naturally, there are cases where taper crimping for autoloaders is mandatory to get proper case tension on the bullet and maintain proper headspace. The 9mm is a good example. With revolvers, a roll crimp is mandatory for heavy magnum loads, particularly when slower powders are used and bullet pull needs to be sustained as long as possible to ensure complete combustion of the powder, and to keep bullets in place under recoil in the cartridges remaining in the cylinder. And we have some diemakers that provide a crimp die that applies both methods in a single operation. But, there are other cases. If you have a slightly undersized expander, or Lyman's step die, you may get all the tension you need and only need to ensure that any flare is removed during the seating operation. Some lead bullets may be sized to large enough diameter that they fall into the previous example. Even in autoloader cartridges.

In the case of .45 ACP there are a good number of loads with .45 Colt revolver bullets that have a cannelure for crimping. A good number of these are heavier in weight than typically used for autoloaders, i.e. those above 230 grains. Some of these loads are near the pressure max of 21,000 PSI, and for their use in .45 ACP revolvers, you may find it beneficial to use a roll crimp, or a profile crimp, and I checked, REDDING does make a profile crimp die for both the .45 ACP and the .45 Auto Rim. That's the way I'd go in this case.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

A revolver made specifically for .45 ACP should headspace on the
case mouth which dictates taper crimp only.

A revolver in .45 Auto Rim will head space on the rim or on the
moon clip if .45 ACP is used in a .45 Auto Rim revolver.

Some .45 Auto Rim revolvers are designed to take .45 ACP and
do head space on either the rim for .45 Auto Rim or on the
case mouth for .45 ACP without the moon clip.

A few .45 Auto Rim revolvers do not headspace on the .45 ACP
case mouth and do require either .45 Auto Rim or .45 ACP in
moon clips.

I have a .455 Webley with the cylinder faced off to fire either
.45 Auto Rim or .45 ACP in moon clips. (A .45 ACP without
a moon clip disappears into the chamber, cannot be fired, and
has to be pushed out with a pencil.) I use a taper crimp with
both .45 Auto Rim cases and .45 ACP.

 

[ZBill]

Thanks CZ57. Your post raises another question. I have a few boxes of .45 Colt 200 gr lead round nose dia of .452. I had not thought of using these in my 25-2. I was goin to reload with some Colt .45 ACP 185 gr. lead semi- wadcutters dia .451.

Can I use both sdiameter bullets in the 25-2? That would be great! Thanks, Bill

 

[ZBill]

after all the assistance

I just had to show her off. Is the presentation box a S&W factory option? The small cover over the cleaning supplies has a S&W medallion on it. Thanks again, Bill

 

[20nickels]

Just eyeballing Winchester White box 230gr has a very small amount of headspace wiggle room IN the moonclip front to back.

Out of the clip and retained in the cylinder by the case mouth it has slightly more wiggle room, but I don't think it is enough to cause a misfire.

Lots of good info. Thanks