Loading over length .44 Magnum for FTX

[3Crows]

For my new CVA break barrel rifle. I have been reloading many years but I have always followed the published data. I have 200 .44 cal Hornady FTX 225 grain (Gummy Tip Lever Revolution) and 100 XTP 240 grain. The XTP are not a problem but the FTX in some calibers including the .44 Magnum require trimmed shorter cases. I know this would be an issue in a lever gun or perhaps some revolvers but I suspect my (on the way to me) CVA .44 Magnum will accommodate standard brass length with the FTX bullets.

I do see load data for the trimmed cases with the FTX. But with normal length cases, scuttlebutt is to use standard load data if not trimming the case under size. My plan is to use a dummy, sized case and to set a bullet atop and then load it into the rifle and let the action push the bullet back to determine the rifling position and gap to rifling. And then set the bullet back from there into the cannelure. So, at long last my question, how much throat/gap do I need to be safe between the bullet and engagement with the rifling?

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

Im still working on loads for my CVA 44 mag. My 200 grain cast work great in it. Crimped on the crimp groove. I have some 240 grain cast. I wasn't sure what OAL to use. Lymans cast gives 2 different ones. Different bullet molds. SO i set them at the longer of the 2. Basically crimping on the 1st lube groove. Those didn't group well. I talked to the Fellow who made them.He said crimp on the crimp groove. I wont blow the gun up. So i have some loaded now with 10 grains of unique. Just waiting for the weather to be decent. As a side. Hornady casings are shorter than others too. So if you have any of them. Might be worth a try.

 

[3Crows]

Im still working on loads for my CVA 44 mag. 10 grains of unique. Just waiting for the weather to be decent. As a side. Hornady casings are shorter than others too. So if you have any of them. Might be worth a try.

I do not have any Hornady cases. That is what I am trying to avoid, having two different case lengths. Some, not all, Lever Revolution calibers including the .44 Mag does have a shorter case length to keep the COL to standard so they will function in lever rifles (.30-30 however does not with the FTX). I do not currently have (though I plan to rectify that shortcoming soon) a .44 lever gun so I will cross that bridge then. I have two hundred of the FTX and 100 of the XTP, no need to cast anything until those are used up.

I am not a switch shooter, I tend to dedicate a rifle to either cast lead bullets or to jacketed bullets and not switch them back and forth. The CVA at this point is getting jacketed. When I get a lever gun in .44 Mag it will get cast.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

Hodgdon has data for the 225gr FTX and non-short cases. It worked fine in my 1894. I'm sure it will work as well in the CVA.

The 44 cal FTX has a LOWER B.C. than it's traditional flat nose counter parts. Not sure the purpose of this bullet other than "It looks cool" and "Because we could".

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I looked them up in my Hornady manual. Interesting bullet.

 

[3Crows]

The question I was asking was really about the throat gap needed (due to FTX bullets with standard length cases). Yes, I have the Hornady book with the load data for both the standard cases and the short "FTX" cases. But I am asking about the needed, safe, gap to rifling for the bullet, an area I am not expert in?

The point of the FTX bullets since it is asked? Well, I have 200 of them and given the scarcity of reloading supplies that is reason enough. And I have deadly (for deer and pigs) results and experience with them in my .30-30.

The question again was for the needed gap to be safe and not over pressure my rifle. The load books do not answer that question and in the many years I have reloaded, I have always stuck to exact loads, trim lengths and COL. Now I am deviating by wanting to use a standard length case and the FTX bullet which will result in a COL that is over length. That is my worry and concern and question.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

Has the data you seek using the exact bullet, case length, and overall length you need.

 

[milsurpguy]

Yes. You have to go way over normal coal to load the FTX. I only bought one box, the rounds would only fit in my super red hawk, so there was no point for me.
Sounds like you have the perfect gun for them, coal is irrelevant for you.

 

[3Crows]

The rifle is allegedly in shipment now. The .44 Mag is a new to me cartridge. It will take a while to get set up for it but I have enough to get started. Just need knowledge on the cartridge. The CVA rifle should be able to handle the slight over length and I will figure out the needed bullet to rifling gap to be safe. Thanks.

 

[3Crows]

Looks like I just found another 100 XTP 240 grain bullets I did not know I had. I had bought them as a muzzleloader package with sabot when Walmart was giving the stuff away nearly free, bought a whole flat. They are .430" XTP, 240 grain, same as any. So, I have plenty of FTX 225gr and XTP 240gr to get going with if I can find the rest of the items, like dies . Arrggh. A bad time to add a new cartridge to my lineup!

 

[mrawesome22-250]

Full length RCBS steel sizer on ebay right now for $19.99 and shipping. It's a tapered steel die so the cases will require lube.

Piece together an expander and seater and you'll have a set.

I much prefer tapered steel dies for low volume straight wall. Much easier on the brass and eliminates the "coke bottle".

Edit: Lyman M die and RCBS seater or Hornady seater available on Midway. There's your set. Pick up a die box on Midway also.

Edit 2: The FTX bullet will require the Hornady seater since only Hornady dies have a plug with the correct dimensions for it.

 

[FROGO207]

If you are using them in a single shot rifle there is no need to crimp for any reason. Just use the load and OAL for the FTX pushing the bullet deeper into the brass. Then try adjusting the length if you feel you need to.

 

[3Crows]

If you are using them in a single shot rifle there is no need to crimp for any reason. Just use the load and OAL for the FTX pushing the bullet deeper into the brass. Then try adjusting the length if you feel you need to.

For some reason I am having a brain cloud on this. Considering the FTX only. If I use the trimmed case data (for lever gun and single shot), I should trim my case and adjust my powder charge down per the loading data and the COL should be kept to spec. If I use a standard case (exclusive to my CVA single shot, not for a lever gun) then I can use standard case loads and just have an over length COL. I think that is right. I think about .020 bullet to rifling gap should be okay but I cannot measure that until I get the rifle in my hands.

 

[buck460XVR]

If you are using them in a single shot rifle there is no need to crimp for any reason.

Many magnum handgun powders need a heavy crimp for proper ignition and combustion. Why not use the cannelure and crimp? OAL with untrimmed brass in a SS rifle is not an issue, the issue is for proper loading in a lever and cylinder length in a revolver. Brass is not trimmed that much shorter in regular FTX recipes. I would use those recipes to start with using the untrimmed brass and go from there. I think that upper end recipes using the longer length brass will still give you good performance outta the SS rifle. The .44 mag, even in a rifle is not a precision rifle. Worrying about how far from the lands you are is moot and odds are you will not notice any difference in accuracy than just crimping in the cannelure. Again, magnum handgun powders like to be crimped. Not trimming brass means that down the road you can use the brass for other .44 bullets too. I myself have not seen any advantage to the FTX bullets over standard XTPs. The little bit of extra velocity from the 225 gr bullet is so little, even from a rifle, that it is not a deal breaker. Want more velocity than you can get with 240s, go with the 200gr XTPs or the 210gr DeepCurls from Speer. Neither looks as cool as the FTXs because they don't have the pretty little red tips, but both perform just as well.

 

[3Crows]

I myself have not seen any advantage to the FTX bullets over standard XTPs. The little bit of extra velocity from the 225 gr bullet is so little, even from a rifle, that it is not a deal breaker. Want more velocity than you can get with 240s, go with the 200gr XTPs or the 210gr DeepCurls from Speer. Neither looks as cool as the FTXs because they don't have the pretty little red tips, but both perform just as well.

The advantage to the FTX is that I have over 200 hundred of them. And many people like them, others do not.

I currently do not have a revolver in .44 Magnum, just the incoming CVA rifle and my desire for a .44 Magnum lever gun. I do not anticipate a .44 revolver anytime soon. If I have to sort brass for FTX use in a lever gun, I will just have to do it. Or use only my stash of the XTP in the lever gun and the FTX in the CVA and keep all brass at standard length which is becoming my plan I think. Simplest.

 

[FROGO207]

The length of your brass can be full length as a regular brass will fit with a dicfetent bullet. So if you use the charge for the FTX and push the bullet into the FTX OAL and don't crimp it wpuld be the same as if you trimmed the brass and inserted the bullet andthen did not crimp it. The thing is the base of the bullet to the lnside bottom of the brass is the same volume either length of brass you use.
But some propellants need a crimp to hold tje bullet in for a complete burn so keep that in mind if you get unburned propellant, a say with 2400.

 

[Reloadron]

My read here on the FTX 225 grain bullets Hornady #44105:
Case Trim Length: 1.255"
The data below / above was developed with FTX bullets. Due to the longer ogive it is critical that cartridge cases be trimmed to the length specified.
COL: 1.645"

Taken from the Hornady 9th Edition reloading manual.

Ron

 

[buck460XVR]

The advantage to the FTX is that I have over 200 hundred of them. And many people like them, others do not.

I currently do not have a revolver in .44 Magnum, just the incoming CVA rifle and my desire for a .44 Magnum lever gun. I do not anticipate a .44 revolver anytime soon. If I have to sort brass for FTX use in a lever gun, I will just have to do it. Or use only my stash of the XTP in the lever gun and the FTX in the CVA and keep all brass at standard length which is becoming my plan I think. Simplest.

Still, until you get your "desired" lever gun, there is no reason to trim the brass. If and when you do get the lever, then you will have to. Who's knows, by then, those 200 bullets may be gone and you may have moved on to another bullet. This way you won't be stuck with trimmed brass you don't need.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

Yeah you're over thinking this. As stated, the 44mag will never be a 1000yrd precision rifle load. Just go with the data on the hodgdon site.

Also, 44mag rifle groove diameter is different than pistol. It is the only cartridge I known of that is this way. Min groove spec for rifle is .431". Min for pistol is .429". Every 44mag rifle I've slugged measured at least .4315" or more. The only way I was ever able to get true precision was with cast .432" bullets. 430" will give "acceptable" accuracy. .432" can produce those ragged one hole groups we all strive for.

 

[3Crows]

Still, until you get your "desired" lever gun, there is no reason to trim the brass. If and when you do get the lever, then you will have to. Who's knows, by then, those 200 bullets may be gone and you may have moved on to another bullet. This way you won't be stuck with trimmed brass you don't need.

No, no need to trim any of the brass because I have 200 XTP 240 grain also reserved for that (lever gun) purpose which will use the standard brass. No need to shorten any brass. I will use the FTX for the CVA over COL with standard brass and the XTP at normal COL length with standard brass for the lever gun (Marlin/Henry). Standard brass for both.

I appreciate the help, truly . My original question was regarding bullet to rifling gap and not wanting to seat the bullet to deep or cause over pressure. I will deal with that measurement when I get the rifle in hand.

I will probably, in time, continue to use the jacketed FTX in the CVA rifle and get a FNRP die for HCL bullets in the lever gun. I cast some bullets for .45-70 (and .45LC) though I currently mostly use the Missouri Bullet Company Large Buffalo for those loads.

Both the FTX and the XTP are .430 diameter so they should be fine in rifle bores.