Loading the modern .45-70 case with Black Powder

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R.Clem

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I have been following this section of The High Road more than others, because I enjoy shooting a BPCR more than most of my other guns.
I have noticed the lack of instructions on loading BP into modern cases, so I am going to try to explain howI get 70 grains of black into a Remington case with a 555 grain bullet. This bullet is nearly 1.42" long, and requires nearly .675" of the bullet into the case.
As I describe the method I use, you will figure out the tools that are needed to do it my way.
Starting with fired cases, decap with a universal decaping die, clean them in soap and water, dry thoroughly and put them in a case shaker. Set the sizing die to neck size only. Bell the mouth of the case, just enough to allow the sharp edge of the bullet base to enter without shaving lead. Prime with your favorite method, I use a hand priming tool. My next step is a dot of note book paper over the primer hole; I do this out of habit, it hasn’t shown any gain in velocity or accuracy. Next weigh out 70 grains of BP, use a scale to start with, a measure will throw up to a 2 grain variation from one to the next, that variation doesn’t really effect accuracy, then dispense this charge into the drop tube (with the case under it) slowly, it should take at least 5 seconds. Now you insert the wad and compress the charge and wad to a depth that will allow your bullet to sit firmly on top of the wad and give you the OAL you want. I went cheep on my compression die, old .300 Weatherby sizer die with the stem removed and replaced with a ¼” bolt that has the corners removed. Now comes the bullet, seat it with care and stop seating when you feel the bullet stop moving. I use a customized Lee crimp die to finish of the operation (by customized I mean it doesn’t leave a crimp ring on the case, just a smooth taper). You now have a loaded .45-70 or most any other straight walled black powder case
The drop tube is the most important part of the operation, it will settle the powder into the case at least ¼” deeper than just dumping it into the case threw a funnel.
This is the method I use, I have done a lot of reading and a lot more experimenting to get to here, but it works and that is all I am after.
If you need a drop tube, they can be made from an aluminum arrow shaft and a funnel, or buy one at Buffalo Arms Co. or other places on line. My drop tube cost less than $10 and took about 30 minutes to build.
Compression dies can also be made as I did, or purchased at the above company.
I am expecting comments about some of my methods, and it may be helpful in the future, so let it happen.
 
Questions for you...

Did "weighing" the powder become the practice for measuring black powder when loading into a cartridge to charge a round? I thought "grains by volume" was the method for black powder measurement and "grains by weight" was the method for modern/smokeless powder.

If you've already primed the shell casing before charging it with the powder... what is the purpose of the "dot of notebook paper over the primer hole" ? Is the dot of paper going inside the shell casing before the powder goes in to be compressed? Is it to give you an air pocket between the primer and the main powder charge to assist in ignition of the main charge?

BTW.... don't be such a lurker... jump in more often with tales, lies, and adventures. Pix are always welcome too. :D
 
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A couple of things to add.

Finding your overal Case length.

Take a used case that was fired from your gun. Then press in a bullet longer than the specified length. The bullet should go in kinda loose as the shell has not been sized. Now chamber the round. Once you chamber the round extract it back out and measure. Subtract .02 of an inch. This is your ideal cartridge overall length. Now take another bullet measure it in length. then set it next to your sample and mark where the end of the bullet would meet the powder. Now go ahead and fill the powder to about 1/16 of an inch higher than the mark. this will allow for compression and a wad. Now just measure the powder in the case with a bp volumetric to see where it comes out.

Remember to always use a volumetric powder measure.
 
I weigh the charges at 70 grains, when I use my rotary powder measure the end result is about 69.7 to 70.3 grains volume. (I dump charges into a pan to trickle them into the drop tube). After checking a few hundred loads of volume charges with my 10-10 scale, I found that 70 grains volume is about the same as 70 grains by weight. The difference is negligible at best, but does vary a little from brand to brand. The catch is, I don't know if everyone starting out has a BP powder measure such as my RCBS with the brass drum and screw. You should not use one with the steel drum and screw for BP. I have heard of problems with the steel one, never had a problem, but it is not recommended.
The paper dot was something that was discussed on a BPCR forum shortly after I started shooting BPCR, so I tried it, as stated, no noticeable difference, but I have about 2000 of these .462 diameter paper dot that aren't going to work for wads, so I just drop them in and push them down with a pencil.
I do like to lurk here, I just read what interests me and respond to the things I know something about, (not a lot much of the time).
I will try to get some pictures posted of the equipment I use when I get back home again.
Sorry, I got caught by dinner.
Most powder measures are volumetric, powder measures are volume that you convert to measured weight by the use of a scale. If you measure BP by volume and then weigh it, the end result will be very close. Brand changes will make a slight difference.
NOTE: Always weigh Triple Seven, never go by volume, and always make sure of the amount that is maximum. This stuff works great, but is about 25% more powerful, cheek Hodgdon's web site for the specifics. The rest of their subs is pretty close. True BP users don't like subs at all.

Ray
 
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I drop the bullet into the chamber so it contacts the rifling on its own, since I shoot a sharps I used the depth portion of a caliper to measure from the chamber start to the base of the bullet, write that down, a 45-70 chamber is 2.10 in length subject your first measurement from that 2.10 it will give you your bullet seat depth. My bullet is 1.30 in length & with 70 grs I was deforming the bullet trying to seat it to deep, one of our clubs better BPCR shooters showed me how to do this bullets load and chamber just fine now.
I use a Lyman 55 BP powder measure & adjust until its throwing the weight I'm looking for, I find its pretty consistant.
 
Most of the BPCR shooters I know weigh their powder charges, usually by the measure short, then trickle on the scale system. Those who don't are using very good powder measures, calibrated by weight and operated carefully to minimize variations. Leave the "grains volume" business for hunting with a flintlock and measuring powder in the tip of a horn. The Sharps Rifle Company advised, in the 1870s, "For fine shooting, powder should be weighed on a scale."

The primer wad is supposed to diffuse the primer flash and give smoother ignition. Some shooters are going to pistol primers. Magnum primers as used to be recommended have mostly dropped out of use. Powder charges are more compressed than the .050" or 1/16" that was recommended in early BPCR revival literature, too.
 
Jim:
I agree with weighing, and use a scale often in conjunction with a trickler. My rotory powder measure gets so close most of the time it hits the pan, the scale to see if it is way short or over, and into the drop tube. The last time I put it on paper, the results were near the 2 1/2" mark at 200 yards.
Thank you for the clarification on the primer wad. I have used them for a long time and will probably keep it up, at least till I go through what I have left.
I have tried pistol primers and all of the rifle primers including Wolf's, which are really hard, and haven't found any that give better accuracy than the Federal 215's, like loading for most everything else, some work better than others as per a given firearm. I don't advocate that everyone should use what I do, find the one that gives the best accuracy and stick with it.
I have found that more compression makes for less fouling to a point, again, it depends on the powder and your particular rifle, at 74 grains, I have to swab the bore after 3 or 4 rounds, with 70-72 grains, I get 10 round strings without swabbing and could probably get a few more. This works for my combination, but may not for others. When I first started loading for my .45-70, I had a real problem with getting those long bullets to seat without deforming them, then I read some articles and ask a lot of questions about how to do it. The most successful shooters drop tube a charge, then compress however much it takes to drop seat the bullet to the depth they need for their rifle.
I started loading for the smokeless rounds a number of years ago, now i am loading BP in cases and too, it has been a learning experience all the way, but it is fun and very satisfying to go out and shoot to see what you have accomplished. I am now working toward shooting at extreme ranges. I think I am going to run out of scope adjustment before I get to the mile, but we'll see.

Ray
 
Most of the BPCR shooters I know weigh their powder charges, usually by the measure short, then trickle on the scale system. Those who don't are using very good powder measures, calibrated by weight and operated carefully to minimize variations. Leave the "grains volume" business for hunting with a flintlock and measuring powder in the tip of a horn. The Sharps Rifle Company advised, in the 1870s, "For fine shooting, powder should be weighed on a scale."

The primer wad is supposed to diffuse the primer flash and give smoother ignition. Some shooters are going to pistol primers. Magnum primers as used to be recommended have mostly dropped out of use. Powder charges are more compressed than the .050" or 1/16" that was recommended in early BPCR revival literature, too.
Thanks for that... that answers my questions... I'll tuck those tidbits to the back burner to simmer 'til the day I have a BPCR of my own to tinker with.
 
I have just finished weighing out 65 grains of 3FG Swiss under a 475 grain soft lead bullet. My OAL's are about 2.65 since I just cant seem to seat the bullet any deeper for love or money. The bullets seem to get deformed, and I am seeing quite a bit of lead shaved during seating.
 
I load blackpowder in the 45-70 and the 50-70. I am neither a target shooter nor a silhouette shooter, just a hunter and a plinker. Heck, once a load is found and my sights adjusted I don't even fire from the bench after that. Just field positions.

My techniques are similar but different. I don't use an overprimer wad but do use a grease cookie between the bullet and powder. I also use the drop tube but don't do any additional compression.

As for powder, I weigh out the first charge for the powder, bullet and cartridge involved and then find or fashion a measure that the weighed charge barely fits into without spilling over or leaving a void. I test that a couple of times to make sure it will work and then procede to dip, drop and load. I have a variety of measures so I can usually get one pretty quick that will work.

Could I refine this technique so it would squeeze out the last scintilla of accuracy from my guns? Sure but I don't need to. What I do works and is more than adequate for my needs. If I were going to attempt 1000 yard shooting for score, I would use a modified approach.

I have a couple of pals that are much more into it than I am but that is there thing.
 
Tom.. wasnt. Even with the expander itstough going.
Loaded up some smokeless as well.. for about 1350 fps went like a charm. The BP stuff is giving me trouble... :(
 
Afy:
Figure out the OAL you want to end up with, or how deep you want to seat the bullet, then weigh the charge you want and get all the components into the case, minus the bullet, measure the empty space to the case mouth and see how much you need to compress to get the bullet to fit without having to exert any pressure. You can use an expander die to compress the charge by screwing the die and expander way up, then put a cases with the components into the shell holder and screw the die down till the expander touches the components and measure how much you will need to compress the load to get the bullet seated firmly on the charge. It is a lot simpler than it sounds.
As for the lead shaving, you should be belling the mouth of the case just enough that the sharp edge of the bullet base will fit into the mouth of the case without shaving lead.
Also, what is the diameter of your bullets? I size mine to .460, when you cast soft lead bullets they seem to be a little over size, .461 is what softies fall from my mold at, but the bore on my rifle is .459, so that is where the .460 works out. I am also using a .459 expander.
StrawHat:
Mine is just a fun gun, plinking at long range is what I enjoy, so that is what it gets used for. I quit hunting when it got to the point I could only get 2 or 3 days in per season. I do however enjoy scaring the daylights out of a coyote whenever one is available. Those things are tough to hit at 500+ yards, but it sure is fun to try.

Ray
 
Ray,

Thank you for the tips. Will try them out and report back.
My Sharps falling block is essentially fro plinking at 100 meters, and giving the cowboy shooters here in France a run for their money in the competitions.
 
ive done this with 357 magnum cases, fun to plink with, and little kids can shoot without worrying about too much recoil.
 
Tom: yes new Starline cases.
The trip to range was interesting, a number of my cartridges failed to chamber.
The .475 grain bullets over 65 grains of Swiss 3fg is a very stiff load. Worse with smokeless.
I do suspect my smokeless loads were a little hot, given a stiff lever after shooting them.
40 shots between smokeless and BP and my shoulder is still sore. I did manage to bend the foresight out of whack, so accuracy left a lot to be desiered. Have put in a cross hair insert now, and will be headed back on Wednesday. With a lighter load in both BP and smokeless.
 
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