Lon Horiuchi A Spokesperson For HS Precision ?

[Mauserguy]

"The Marshals had a warrant for Weaver as issued by the judge for not showing up to his hearing (because his summons had the wrong date on it)."


A warrant for a hearing with the wrong date on it for charges that were eventually determined invalid because the agents entrapped Weaver. Regardless of what you think about whether the Marshals should have gone to arrest Weaver, shooting a woman and baby was over-reach and bad policing.

If all of this was a mere accident, then Horiuchi should have been fired for negligence. However you view the facts, Horiuchi should not be endorcing products.
Mauserguy

 

[DMF]

Strange that he has nothing to say about the BATF lying to the Federal Marshalls about Weaver being a "bank robber", which was of course the proximate cause of ALL of the deaths.

ATF never told the USMS that Weaver was a bank robber. Again, when did it become OK to outright lie on THR?

 

[DMF]

Yes, I suppose you could say that the prosecutor dropped the charges, but it would overlook the fact that he only did so as a result of the delay incurred as a result of the sovereign immunity claim that was the basis for the first dismissal. I think leaving that part out is intellectually dishonest, but you can do as you will.

No what's dishonest is for you to claim you know the prosecutors intent. I don't know it either, but I do know this I have never seen a prosecutor decline to prosecute a death case, whether murder or manslaughter simply because too much time has passed. The passage of time in that case had little affect on the prosecution's case, because it was one of the most thoroughly investigated incidents in LE history, and the evidence was extremely well documented. There would need to be more than the mere passing of a few years to prevent a prosecution. There have been murder prosecutions decades after the crime, where those cases didn't get nearly as thorough an investigation as the incident at Ruby Ridge.

 

[ilbob]

Horiuchi's intended target was not Vicki Weaver, and in fact he could not see Vicki Weaver when attempted to shoot Kevin Harris.

Did you think he was just going to admit what he did?

In any case, this is an exceedingly stupid thing for H-S to do, and an incredible reach for any defense of what happened at RR. There should have been multiple prison sentences handed out to any number of fedgov employees for the sheer volume of lies they told after the fact, if nothing else. But, I am sure the apologists for fedgov iron fisted thuggery will say there is nothing wrong with creative report writing.

 

[DMF]

Randy Weaver was "selling" to the 'ATF - who entrapped him by insisting he cut a barrel below legal limit.

You know that nonsense gets repeated often, but how many people actually have taken the time to find out the truth? Obviously not you!

Here it is:
"In October 1989, Randy Weaver sold illegal weapons to a BATF
informant. When BATF agents later attempted to enlist Weaver as
an informant in their investigation of the Aryan Nations, Weaver
refused to cooperate. Seven months later, the government
indicted Weaver for the illegal weapons sales. We have found no
evidence to support the claim that BATF targeted Weaver because
of his religious or political beliefs. Similarly, we found
insufficient evidence to sustain the charge that Weaver was
illegally entrapped into selling the weapons."

"At the World Aryan Congress in July 1987, Fadeley again met
Weaver, who was accompanied by his wife and children. Weaver
mentioned to Fadeley that it was a "struggle" to provide for his
family. Weaver also declared that he did not trust the leaders
of the Aryan Nations and that he did not agree with the actions
of Richard Butler, leader of the Aryan Nations.30 After this
contact, Fadeley continued to view Weaver simply as one of the
many attendees at the World Aryan Congress.
c. Sale of Weapons by Weaver to BATF Informant
Fadeley and Weaver met again at the July 1989 World Aryan
Congress, where Weaver was one of the speakers.31 Fadeley told
Weaver that his gun "business [was] busy." In response, Weaver
did not offer to sell Fadeley firearms, but he did invite Fadeley
to a house he was renting to discuss forming a group to fight the
"Zionist Organized Government," a term used by Aryan Nations
members to refer to the U.S. Government.32 According to Weaver,
the proposed group was to include [ ] and [
,] who had been convicted of an explosives violation and
had formed an Aryan Nations splinter group in Montana,33 was of "continuing investigative interest" to the
BATF. After learning of Weaver's plan to include [ ] in
this group, the BATF began to view Weaver as a possible point of
introduction to [ .34]
On September 8, 1989, at BATF's request, Fadeley telephoned
Weaver and arranged to meet him on October 11.35 Fadeley did
not record his conversations with Weaver during the October 11
meeting. At the meeting, Weaver asked Fadeley how his business
was going. Fadeley replied that he was "extremely busy" and that
he had sold all his "product." Weaver explained that he would
like to assist Fadeley and that ['
'36
] Weaver tnen asked wnat the most popular items were,
ana Fadeley described the "street" weapons he thought he could
sell, including shotguns. In response, Weaver said that he could
supply four or five shotguns per week.[
] Weaver added
that there would be "no paper," that is, the weapons would not
have registration documents.37
As the two men left the meeting, Fadeley walked to Weaver's
truck where Weaver showed Fadeley a shotgun and indicated a spot
on the barrel where he thought it could be cut. Fadeley pointed
to the weapon and said "about here"38 [39 ]
Following the meeting, Special Agent Herbert Byerly, Fadeley's
BATF contact agent, conducted various records checks on
Weaver.40
On October 13, 1989, Fadeley telephoned Weaver from a BATF
office and recorded the conversation to confirm his report of the
October 11 meeting. During this discussion, Fadeley and Weaver
used agreed upon code words and referred to weapons as [
41]
On October 24, 1989, Weaver met with Fadeley, who was
wearing a miniature tape recorder and an electronic transmitter.
At that time, Weaver gave Fadeley two shotguns, one with a 13
inch barrel, the other with a 12-3/4 inch barrel. Weaver told
Fadeley that he had cut the shotgun barrels himself, "itting
under a shade tree with a vise and a hacksaw," and added that,
"when I get my workshop set up I can do a better job."42
Fadeley paid Weaver $300.00 for the weapons. When Weaver
requested an additional $150.00 for the weapons, Fadeley told hi:
that he would give him the additional money at the next
purchase.43 Fadeley then proceeded to tell Weaver that
"[t]here is money to be had, and it looks like [you] did a real
nice job". He then asked Weaver, "You figured four cr five a week?" to which Weaver replied, "yeah, or more." Weaver repeated
that there would be no paper trail on the weapons.44
Fadeley met Weaver again on November 30, 1989 with the
intent of arranging a trip to Montana to meet [ ] At this
time, Weaver announced that he had five additional sawed-off
shotguns available for purchase. When Fadeley told him that he
had not brought enough money to pay for them.[
] In addition,
weaver told Fadeley that he was not able to go to Montana that
day, [
] Fadeley paid Weaver $100
toward the balance of tne previous purchase of two sawed-off
shotguns.45 Following this meeting, Byerly instructed Fadeley
to have no additional contact with Weaver.46"
http://www.justice.gov/opr/readingroom/rubyreportcover_39.pdf

Again, why let the truth get in the way of your agenda?

 

[DMF]

The training is now militarized and centers around escalating to a physical confrontation followed by overwhelming force. Police training now subtly but heavily emphasizes a shutdown of conscience and a focus on following orders in the quest to force compliance from the citizen.

Where do you get this crap? Modern LE training is nothing like you describe.

 

[Treo]

Horiuchi's intended target was not Vicki Weaver, and in fact he could not see Vicki Weaver when attempted to shoot Kevin Harris

So we're expected to believe that a man reputed to be able to hit a nickle at 100YDs missed Kevin Harris by 10 inches and "accidently" put one through Vicky Weaver's brain pan? And this amidst the rumors that she was a priority target?

DMF do you work for or are you conected to any law enforcement agency?

Regardless of individual opinions I would say that this thread itself indicates that Horiuchi is a poor choice for a spokes person.

 

[General Geoff]

You know that FTA that caused the USMS service to be out there preparing to arrest him. Had Weaver shown up for court to participate in his due process rights as assured by the Constitution DUSM Degan, Sam Weaver, and Vicki Weaver wouldn't have died in that tragedy. Make no mistake about it the origin of that tragedy was Weaver's refusal to come to court.

HE DID NOT REFUSE TO COME TO COURT. His official summons had the WRONG DATE listed. I still can't believe he was convicted of that failure to appear charge, knowing that the summons was wrong.

 

[DMF]

Research or remember the case and you will find that not only did Weaver win the case . . .

No he lost the case that caused the USMS to be on his property doing surveillance while preparing to arrest him. He was convicted and sentenced to 18 months on the charges related to his failure to appear in court on his original case.

 

[DMF]

Randy Weaver did not kill his wife the feds came in and found his son hunting in the woods and shot his hunting dog and then the boy. The feds shot first they did not attempt an arrest they shot. The boy did shoot at them, but wouldn't you if someone approached you in the woods and starting shooting first?

They weren't out hunting, they were out patrolling the property looking for cops. That's what the family had done since Weaver had been released on bond.

 

[DMF]

What can you show me to demonstrate that the Federal Marshalls who STARTED THE SHOOTING had a warrant of ANY kind?

Are you kidding me? They had an arrest warrant for Weaver based on his FTA for the original case. That charge for which they had an arrest warrant was what he was ultimately convicted on, and sentenced to 18 months.

 

[General Geoff]

They weren't out hunting, they were out patrolling the property looking for cops.

Prove it.

 

[Treo]

DMF,
Would you mind terribly answering this specific question ?

DMF do you work for or are you connected to or retired from any law enforcement agency?

Added emphasis italized

 

[DMF]

The Marshals had a warrant for Weaver as issued by the judge for not showing up to his hearing (because his summons had the wrong date on it).

That is not correct. Weaver was originally given a trial date of February 19. The court changed that to February 20th, and attempted to notify Weaver, including trying to notify Weaver through his lawyer.

The wrong date was on a letter sent by the officer working for US Probation that was supervising Weaver while released on bond. The letter references the trial date, incorrectly, but was a letter asking why Weaver was not complying with the conditions of bond set by the court. You see Weaver was already in violation of the conditions of bond when that letter was sent. Weaver had already started to act in a manner hostile to the court. Regardless, the correct date had been sent to Weaver and his lawyer by the court clerk. However, Weaver was already refusing to communicate with his attorney.

So Weaver was violating the conditions of bond, refusing to communicate with his attorney, and then Weaver did not show up for court, either on the correct date that the court and his attorney tried to notify him of, or the incorrect correct date referenced in a letter about his failure to comply with conditions of bond.

Despite the fact the court and his lawyer actually did attempt to notify Weaver of the correct court date, IMO you'd have a decent point if the USMS had tried to arrest Weaver before the incorrect March 20 court date referenced in the letter from the probation officer. However, they did not do that. In fact they didn't arrest him immediately following March 20th. Instead they attempted to get him to come to court for a year and a half. In that time the Randy and Vicki Weaver made threatening statements, and the ENTIRE family (including Sam Weaver) was known through surveillance to be prepared for an armed confrontation with law enforcement.

The DUSMs that were on the Weaver property in August of 92 were attempting to recon the property in preparation for an operation that would hopefully allow the USMS to arrest Weaver without violence. Unfortunately Randy Weaver, Kevin Harris, Sam Weaver and the family dog went out and confronted them and a shootout resulted.

However, let's not pretend that one typo from the probation officer gave Weaver justification for his actions, especially considering the court clerk and his lawyer tried to get him the correct court date, and no attempt to arrest Weaver was made before the incorrect later date referenced in the probation letter. Further, Weaver had already been violating the conditions of his bond prior to the probation officer sending out that letter.

 

[DMF]

You are also overlooking Horiuchi's first shot which started the chain of events leading to Vicki's death. He first shot Randy Weaver in the back when he was checking on his son's body. That's two shots at unarmed innocent people . . .

Weaver was shot while carrying a rifle. Horiuchi said Weaver was attempting to take aim on a helicopter flying overhead. Whether or not the issue of trying to shoot the helo is true, does not change the fact that your claim that Weaver was unarmed is false.

 

[Treo]

DMF,

Is there any particular reason you keep ( apparently) ducking this question.

DMF do you work for or are you connected to or retired from any law enforcement agency?

 

[DMF]

How about Gerry Spence and the rest of Weaver's lawyers? It was part of the testimony at his trial.

Always nice to catch someone in a lie. Spence didn't call any witnesses or put on any evidence. He merely cross examined the government's witnesses, and made closing arguments.

"During the trial, the prosecution called 56 witnesses, while the defense, confident that the government would destroy their own case, called none."

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/19.html

 

[DMF]

Did you think he was just going to admit what he did?

It's not a question of Horiuchi's statements on the matter, the physical evidence shows he could not see her when he fired the shot.

 

[Byron Quick]

The FBI made the claim some time before Ruby Ridge that its snipers could hit within a quarter inch at a hundred yards.

That leaves one with either one of two conclusions-the FBI was lying through its teeth or Lon Horiuchi hit exactly what he was aiming at.

As far as him not being convicted of murder proving anything...in 1958 two cops shot my next door neighbor in the field behind our houses. Six times in the back of the head and neck from a distance of eighteen inches. One was convicted. Of voluntary manslaughter. The other was never charged.

Law enforcement officers have a history of questionable homicides with the subsequent investigation having the appearance of being a whitewash.

RPCVYemen, give you some homework. Find a case of a private citizen who was found guilty of voluntary manslaughter after shooting someone six times. Not a plea bargain as this was not a plea bargain. All this officer was ever charged with was voluntary manslaughter.

I own two rifles with HS Precision stocks. I'll be replacing them as soon as possible with McMillan's. And cutting up the crap.

It's not a question of Horiuchi's statements on the matter, the physical evidence shows he could not see her when he fired the shot.
__________________

So basically, you are saying that Horiuchi was not sure of his target or what was beyond it? Are you also claiming that he is competent in handling a firearm?

I suppose the reported taunting of the Weaver family by calling Vicki's name repeatedly after she was shot never happened either? Oh, of course not, the FBI didn't know she'd been shot by accident. The FBI has never 'inadvertently' set numerous buildings on fire either have they?

 

[DMF]

So we're expected to believe that a man reputed to be able to hit a nickle at 100YDs missed Kevin Harris by 10 inches and "accidently" put one through Vicky Weaver's brain pan? And this amidst the rumors that she was a priority target?

Yeah, because the physical evidence shows he could not see her when he fired that shot. It's that simple.

You know we've been down this road before, but some of you choose to remain willfully ignorant of the facts.

Here's a refresher - from the original 9th Circuit case:
"The man approached the door of the cabin very quickly,
then slowed down, paused and went through the door. Hori-
uchi had aimed his rifle ahead of the man at the door to
account for the distance that he would move while the bullet
traveled the intervening 200 yards. Unbeknownst to Horiuchi,
Vicki Weaver was on the other side of the door, holding it
open, out of Horiuchi's view. She was shot and killed. The
bullet then struck Harris in the shoulder.

The door to the cabin opened out. The bullet went through
a pane of glass in the cabin door. There were curtains that
could be pulled across the window. It was disputed whether
the curtains were drawn when Horiuchi took his shot, but the
bullet hole in the curtains lined up with the hole in the glass
only if the curtain was pulled across the glass. . .

. . . Horiuchi's testimony that he never saw Vicki Weaver
and did not know she was behind the door was not disputed. . ." (emphasis added)

 

[General Geoff]

DMF, please answer Treo's question.

 

[DMF]

HE DID NOT REFUSE TO COME TO COURT. His official summons had the WRONG DATE listed. I still can't believe he was convicted of that failure to appear charge, knowing that the summons was wrong.

Again, that is simply not true. The court gave Weaver and Weaver's attorney the correct date. Weaver refused to communicate with his lawyer. Weaver was also violating the conditions of his bond. The probation officer assigned to supervise Weaver while on bond sent Weaver a letter regarding Weaver's failure to comply with the conditions of bond, and that letter referenced the trial date incorrectly. However, as I said the court actually provided Weaver and his lawyer with the correct trial date.

 

[Treo]

DMF, please answer Treo's question.

DMF, please answer Treo's question.

 

[X-Rap]

You can clearly see the rational that the gov. uses in these latest posts. Those that deny an us against them mentality only need to read this thread. I only hope that these limited events don't become the norm or we are in a world of s**t. The feds walked from the Idaho courtroom because they were the feds plain and simple.

 

[DMF]

DMF,

Is there any particular reason you keep ( apparently) ducking this question.

DMF do you work for or are you connected to or retired from any law enforcement agency?

1st, I've been going through this thread sequentially responding to posts in order. I was not ducking your question, it just takes time to get through seven pages of posts. You might try to learn some patience, and the same goes for you General Geoff.

2nd, what if I was refusing to answer that question? I am not required to answer, and whether or not I do it's irrelevant to the discussion.

3rd, I have been a member of THR for more than 4 years, and am approaching nearly 2000 posts. It is well established on here that I work in LE. So that makes your inquiry a low priority.

Feel free to read my previous posts over the last 4 years. I have not attempted in any way shape or form to hide the fact that I am a cop.