Long crossers and trajectory

[RNB65]

How much does trajectory come into play when shooting long crossers? Say you're shooting 90* crossers at 40yds using #8 heavy target load, how far ABOVE the target do you need to be to hit it?

I simply cannot hit long crossers worth a darn and I'm starting to wonder if my problem is an elevation problem and not a lead problem. I think I'm giving it plenty of lead but I suspect my shot isn't reaching the clay.

 

[ArmedBear]

I'm not sure. I use 7 1/2 shot at about 1250 fps and it's pretty intuitive. At 40 yards or more, I think the bigger shot makes a difference, but maybe that's just like having a rabbit's foot tied to the gun.

Problem I have is when I switch from trap (vertical lead, but with my trap gun that compensates for it a bit) to 5-stand, where it's lead or no lead, in any possible direction. I usually pass-shoot crossers like that; makes the lead mostly intuitive -- the faster the thing is going, the more lead my reaction time will add.

Best way to find out, though, is pattern your gun at 40 yards on a big piece of cardboard.

 

[junyo]

I'm no expert, by any stretch of the imagination, but I do better with crossers than I do with the straightaways. And I almost never even worry about height. I come off the middle top of the house and jump on it as early as possible, catch up while it's still raising, and the overswing seems to set the height correctly. Maybe that helps.

 

[JohnBT]

This is the first thing I turned up. John

www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.shotgun-drop-factor.html

"Shot Drop factor:

On the trap field when you back up to that 27 yard line most folks will start reaching for a load of 7-1/2 super killers, instead of the proper choke tube for that range, choke tubes where meant to be used so you can change range patterning of your shotgun.

The shot does drop:

Now lets look at the difference in drop and energy factors of these loads of #7-1/2, 8, 9 and 4 shot. Velocity factor of 1200 feet per second range 60 yards.
Drop factor:
(7-1/2) drop - 10.9" from bore line.
(8) drop - 11.3" from bore line.
(9) drop - 12.4" from bore line.
(4) drop - 8.8" from bore line."

 

[RNB65]

Thanks John,

Looks like that chart doesn't take decelleration into account. Shot moving 1200ft/sec at muzzle will be considerably slower at 40yds. So we're probably talking 8-12in drop at 40 yards. Not a huge amount, but something to think about.

Then again, perhaps I'm just a mediocre shotgunner with bad eyesight. Those are probably more important factors.

 

[junyo]

Question:
You're getting what .5"-1"? of spread for each yard of horizontal travel? So even choked down the drop should be well within the spread, unless the muzzle never rises past horizontal, correct?

 

[TrapperReady]

The best thing would be to get some qualified instruction. Usually, someone who knows what they are doing can tell almost immediately where you are missing.

That being said... I'll give you my thoughts on it. For 40 yard shots, I don't do a thing with regards to compensating for shot drop, and I normally hit them consistently. I think the biggest thing is to make sure that you are on the target line. I've found that on long crossers (especially ones you can see for a while), it's very easy to "ride the target" a bit and shoot right as the target is transitioning from upward flight to level/dropping. Often, people will swing through and get their lead, but are doing so on the line the target was taking as it climbed. Then, right as they pull the trigger, the target has crested and they miss above.

My wife shoots almost exclusively swing-through and can be prone to this problem. If I remind her to get her lead on the target line, then she'll start breaking them.

Sometimes if I'm having trouble with a particular presentation (I'm talking about practicing... not shooting a round), I'll intentionally try extending my lead until I KNOW I'm missing, and then working back towards the target until it starts breaking. I may burn through a bunch of shells at first, but once I start breaking the target, then I know very accurately what I had to do to break it. This is also a reason why I practice with very tightly patterning chokes.

 

[BozemanMT]

You're behind it
or mis-reading the target. Many times shots that look easy, aren't because they are dropping instead of rising, or whichever.
Solve the optical illusion
But on a long fast dropper your lead can be huge. (perceived 5 to 6') and I'm sure you are behind it.
try to miss in front.

 

[sm]

Yes I am giving input as well.

I am bumfuzzling RNB65 via PMs. About got 'em ready to take up playing checkers ...

 

[RNB65]

I am bumfuzzling RNB65 via PMs.

Steve's advice so far is to get an eye exam and to practice hitting clays hanging on a string at 10ft. I'm not sure which one of us is being bumfuzzled!

 

[sm]

One cannot shoot what they cannot see -Misseldine

See ya'll thought I was going to post a smart-aleck reply like "Crown Me"

I can access and diagnose , I had mentors that spent enough time with me going nuts, after a bit one hears these things in their sleep and dreams.

We have established RNB65 is a seasoned shooter, gun fits *to the best of our knowledge* and is into SC. He shoots from low gun naturally. No skeet range he can access shorter crossers nearby. Also we do have some eyes that are changing perhaps, and existing eye problems (problems he has had for years), may very well attributing to more difficulty that someone with normal eyes and strong eye dominance on strong side.

Brain remembers how something is done. Human Computer with eyes, hands, and body movements can only give "data" back as the "data" put in. My concerns are , while he has the correct basic fundamentals, his software may be a bit skewed with the eyes. Getting the eyes to a new version of software will therefore assist his total Human Computer in giving out better data.



Impressive stuff huh?

So after eyes checked, and shooting closer targets, he will putting better data into his Memory. Just like someone shooting closer at stationary targets to instill confidence, self esteem, and get the basic fundamentals down pat, then increasing distances a wee bit at time.

Double check the guns loads and patterns for distances. Loading differ, as do lots of powders. Change of any of the components in reloading can affect downrange patters as well.

Also double check gun fit, because as we age, we can and do change physically. Perhaps a bind occurs, stopping his swing and shooting behind.

I happen to prefer Swing Through (pass shooting) to match speed and angle of flight.



Steve

 

[ArmedBear]

Many times shots that look easy, aren't because they are dropping instead of rising, or whichever.

Ah, yes, and this problem is confounded if you often shoot trap and/or skeet, which follow a predictable trajectory.

 

[dmarbell]

JohnBT's post #4 and stuff

Arrival time to 60 yards in seconds:
(7-1/2) .2375
(8) .2423
(9) .2538
(4) .2140

Above is more info from the site he linked to. Note that with #8's, the average speed for 60 yards is 743 feet/second. 180 feet divided by 743 fps =.2423 seconds. So the shot starts at 1200 fps and is traveling at less than 743 fps at 60 yards.

Is there some data on shotgun ballistics for 25-40 yard shots, like most of the SC shots?

For example, one shot my club has is a battue that goes straight up like a rising teal. If you shoot it as it starts down, say going 6 mph (I'm making up numbers here), then it is traveling 8.8 fps and accelerating. At 35 yards, say, the #8's probably take half the time per above. The battue will drop 1 foot in .12 seconds at 6 mph. If the shot drops 3-5 inches at that distance, you need to be a few inches under the bird. I was probably pointing 2 feet below it yesterday.

For those using the initial 1200 +/- fps velocity of the shot as the speed to calculate lead, if means they are probably under-leading most crossing shots. I know lead is mostly feel and experience, but the experience will be slow if you are pointing at the wrong spots.

Danny

 

[sm]

Is there some data on shotgun ballistics for 25-40 yard shots, like most of the SC shots?

Seems to me there is, I may have glanced at it.

Here is the deal, everyone perceives different.

In the old days before VCRs in Beta and VHS, folks would do cards showing folks lead on skeet /trap stations.
Later they come out with all these Tapes and all...
Folks would be "thinking" about all this stuff and "measuring".
All the cards were for - really- was to give someone an idea of what they were supposed to be looking for - general idea, baseline - then work out from themselves.


I got tickled, a fellow with Sponsors was doing a clinic. Known shooter, had this tape showing his muzzle and breaking a clay.
Sponsors wanted him to sell these of course.

"Don't buy the stupid tape and toss all that math crap out too. Instead use the money to buy ammo and shoot - or like this clinic, get lessons"

We would watch a student shoot, read the student, read shot clouds. breaks and make adjustments.

Once a person makes a hit - human brain remembers what it looks like for them.

Newfangled thing at the time was Sustained Lead. Such the rage, if you don't shoot Sustained lead , with this brand of Shotgun, and that brand of shells, you could not shoot, your momma was going to cry , and you were going to hell.

Phooey! Only damn reason this fellow was showing Sustained lead - getting paid to do so. He could shoot it, he could shoot pass through, snap, from the hip and behind his back...

Teal? Thems easy. This known shooter was having fits with Teal in 5 stand, he shot Skeet btw.
I am the one that got him to break Teal.

Don't ask me the math stuff, math my weak link. Besides, I don't care.
If its broke - its broke. All that matters.

I shoot from low gun, mount gun to face, and all I am focusing on is the most leading edge of target. I could not tell one the lead - as I do not see anything but "some daylight".

I have had folks - seasoned folks - watch shooters like me - and "we do not see a lead- you are swinging through so damn fast - we cannot see a lead".

Known shooter went 22 straight that day shooting Rising Teal - once he got the knack of it. I went 37 straight - ran out of shells...

I was as tall as a kitchen table in the 50's when ...

Just shoot the damn gun - Mentors