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Looking at getting into Muzzleloader

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Rogue909, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. Rogue909

    Rogue909 Member

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    I'm looking at getting into muzzloading. For predominant two reasons. The extended dear season and the ability to cast bullets (I think casting would be fun.) Hopefully someone will entertain my questions.

    What rifle is a good rifle to start with? My goal would be to be able to take deer at 150yds. I would like to keep the complexity down. I have no real desire to stick traditional.

    I was looking at the CVA line. What is the difference between the optima, accuracy, and wolf?

    I saw a youtube video where they say you can swap to cased ammunition as well? Like swapping barrels to make a break barrel 45-70.

    How does the CVA line up against the TC series?

    Do muzzleloaders require a special scope?

    Are there any other options things I should be focused on?
     
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  2. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    For a hunting arm I'd get a replica Civil War 2 band Enfield (33" barrel or even the shorter 24" barrel). It'll reach out to 500 yards and with a 535 grain bullet, it is an effective killer.
     
  3. Olon

    Olon Member

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    I too have considered getting into the sport. Primarily for the extended deer season in case I can't bag anything during November firearm and that puff of black powder smoke seems pretty cool honestly. Looking forward to seeing what this thread brings. As for the optic I would think that within the effective (or let's say reasonable) range of a muzzleloader just irons would be sufficient? Sometimes I feel like a massive scope is a hindrance but maybe that's just the country boy in me.
     
  4. Bill Raby

    Bill Raby Member

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    People managed to shoot deer just fine for a few hundred years before scopes were invented. I don't see why everyone thinks they need one now.
     
  5. Shanghai McCoy

    Shanghai McCoy Member

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    While I agree with your premise I will have to say that my old eyes make it difficult to rely on open iron sights for hunting. Yes, I can compensate with my glasses but the weather during deer season here is not always conducive to wearing, and shooting, with glasses.
    Scopes will make up for that... (not that any of my muzzle loaders have one.)
     
  6. Olon

    Olon Member

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    I agree, way too much emphasis on getting a $1000 Leupold or ACOG. Personally I'd rather buy a new gun for that much.
     
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  7. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    A person can spend anywhere from $200 to $1000 or more to get into modern muzzle loading and I don't have a clue how much you want to spend.

    Every gun can have different features, weight, barrel length, length of pull, and made with different coatings, finishes, stocks and designs.

    Some guns can be eliminated from contention by price, by simply shouldering the gun or examining it based on visiting a retail store, the larger the better.

    Or by investigating as much as you can about the models in your price range, articles, videos, user reviews and modern muzzle loading & hunting forums.

    Some long range hunters prefer to use a muzzle loader scope that has a range compensating reticle to help compensate for bullet drop.
    While a special scope may not be necessary, they can be very helpful for long distance hunting and target shooting out to 200-250 yards.

    Did you know that the standard CVA breech plug is not recommended for use with Black Horn 209 powder and that an optional breech plug
    needs to be purchased? CVA seems to be the only company that tells people to buy a 2nd CVA breech plug for use with that powder.

    Many folks recommend buying a model with a nitride coating which is very desirable for its rust resistance:--->>> https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/traditions-nitride-pursuit-g4-rifle.html
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
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  8. Rogue909

    Rogue909 Member

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    Personally, I would prefer to have a scope for 150yd shooting. I'm sure it can be done without it. I'm also willing to tap out and accept help!

    I'd prefet to spend as little as possible (wouldn't we all?)

    But I know there is a certain amount you have to pay. I know I want a break barrel and inline. But when I look at the optima vs wolf vs accura; I see 3 of the same rifle at $200, $350, and ,$600... So what else am I missing?
     
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  9. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    I thought that one of the differences with the Accura was that it has a barrel that's labeled as being a Bergara, as having a match grade type barrel.
    Even though the other models may have barrels made in the same factory (or not), they may not all be made to the same spec.'s, using the same steel, or having the same receiver platform and trigger mechanisms.

    This may be a very fine distinction, but the Begara label may indicate that the barrel has the fewest level of defects, such as finer polishing, inspection and overall higher quality & precision.
    It doesn't mean that the other guns are bad. It may only mean that they're less expensive.
    It's not like a hunter in the field can shoot a rifle as well as a machine rest would inside of an underground tunnel.
    Even expensive guns can have flaws since they are all like individuals with no two being the exact same.
    Many of us are taught to believe that it's the shooter that makes more of a difference than the gun.
    But a better quality gun can certainly help to somewhat minimize the differences between shooters, even if mostly at the longer distances.
    And then there's the issues of the quality of the optics, bullets, powder selection, etc...

    There's a 2 part series of CVA videos showing how Bergara barrels are made starting with the part 1 factory tour:--->>>
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  10. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    Part 2 of the Bergara factory tour:--->>>
     
  11. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    I realize that it's an effective killer, but aren't some of the higher end fast twist inlines more like a Whitworth sniper rifle when compared to many of the regular issue civil war muskets?
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  12. Rogue909

    Rogue909 Member

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    I'm concerned about cleaning a traditional Flint/percussion. That's why I was looking at the inline.

    I've read enough about cleaning issues that an inline is what I think I want. I don't fully understand why these are so bad though. I thought black powder wasn't corrosive?...
     
  13. red rick

    red rick Member

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    I would start with a CVA Optima , it is a step up from the Wolf and I like the easy bullet starter muzzle and the longer barrel on the Optima .

    Accura - 27" barrel , 14.5 LOP , sling , non slip stock , bullet guiding muzzle , sling and the bore of the barrel is suppose to get more honing .
    Optima - 26" barrel , 14" LOP , bullet guiding muzzle
    Wolf - 25" barrel , 14" LOP

    CVA use to make the Apex and you could swap barrels , it looks like they discontented it this year . TC still makes the Encore and you can switch barrels , but with how much they cost and all of the new good budget rifles on the market I would pass on that option .

    Quality , I think TC's quality is a little better than CVA and I own an Accura , but that is just my opinion . I went to my LGS too buy a Bone Collector , but walked out with the Accura , because it had a better feeling trigger to me and still is one of the best triggers I have .

    Any good rifle scope will work fine on a muzzleloader . You are only going to shoot up to 150 yards , so no need for a lot of power . I have a 2x7 VXII on mine and mainly just keep it on 4 .

    The main thing to focus on as with all long guns is fit . Does it fit you , if not try another model and remember the type of clothing you will be wearing . Also how the stock feels in your hands , I don't like the non slip stock on the new Accura . Mine didn't have that when I bought mine . It is like the Optima stock and that is what I would buy today if I were going to replace it because of that . I also like the thumbhole stocks . Decide if you want to buy a complete gun with a scope already mounted , or would you rather spend more money for a better scope , it's your budget . If you can , try the triggers . Decide what finish you want on the barrel and stock . It seems CVA is pushing this Nitride finish and TC also has one that they are pushing . I picked stainless steel .

    Yes , black powder is very corrosive and you should clean your rifle as soon as possible after firing it and the hunting day is over .

    Never use smokeless powder in a black powder rifle , it will become a pipe bomb .
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  14. Rogue909

    Rogue909 Member

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    How does the constant cleaning work with barrel fouling? I thought that an unfouled barrel will "act up" during the first few shots.

    I can't imagine that shooting a couple of shots at 5am before I walk into the blind is a comforting idea.
     
  15. red rick

    red rick Member

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    Not really , depends on the powder . I know a lot of people love it , but Blackhorn 209 is the only powder that I have tried that with a clean barrel the first shot is not in the group , but still close enough to kill a deer . It also will hang fire in my CVA , but mine is an older V1 Accura .They say you should fire a couple of primers before you load your rifle to get out any moisture or oil from your cleaning . Like you said , I don't do that when I get out of my truck to hunt . I just run a dry patch down the barrel and wipe off the breech plug before I leave the house , the night before .
     
  16. whughett

    whughett Member

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    What ever it is, I suggest you only buy from an LGS, reason being try on several rifles as you would a pair of boots. By that I mean, shoulder the piece, check the fit, stock height on the cheek, length of pull, how far down into the stock before your lined up on the sights. Throw the rife up to shoulder as for a snap shot, did it come into battery quickly or did you have to fuss with it. Not all rifles are created equal, most are generic to fit. Case in point my first rifle was a Cherokee bought more for looks than anything else, problem was I couldn't get down on to the stock low enough to pick up the sights, had to put a red dot on it just to be able to shoulder the arm and use it.
    If your use to hunting with a repeating rife a muzzle loader is going to be a whole new experience. An old Maine adage, one shot meat on the table, two shots maybe, three shots still running.

    From an ex-hunter now retired from the woods.
     
  17. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    When asked about the need to prepare for a hunt with a fouled or clean barrel, a dedicated Blackhorn 209 user told me that he simply snaps a couple of primers in the gun before loading it.
     
  18. whughett

    whughett Member

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    Sight any gun in with a cold clean barrel. If its not printing where you want it, re-sight until it does or ones ability allows it to. First shots on game are always from a cold clean barrels. In any rifle a clean patch is ran down the barrel to remove excess oil before the hunt. Most center fire hunters will allow the barrel to cool between sighting shots fouling not being a major issue.
     
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  19. red rick

    red rick Member

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    The first shot is the best one .

    My centerfire rifle may not always have a clean bore though .
     
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  20. Bill Raby

    Bill Raby Member

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    Traditional rifle is no more work to clean than a modern rifle. Only difference is that you have to actually do it. You cannot put it off until the next day. It takes a bit more skill to make a traditional rifle reliable and to hunt with one. Black powder is corrosive. The substitutes are more corrosive. Inline rifles are bad because the whole purpose of them is to get around hunting laws. They are for people that want another hunting season, but don't actually want to use a muzzleloader. A stainless steel and plastic inline with a scope is really no different than a single shot centerfire rifle. The primitive hunting season is not about putting meat in the freezer. Its about hunting the way it used to be. Anyone can get a deer with a 30-06. It takes skill to do it with a Brown Bess. If you really want to impress someone, get a deer with a matchlock.
     
  21. whughett

    whughett Member

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    The beauty of modern smokeless:) over black, seasonal cleaning, one and done.
     
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  22. Bfh_auto

    Bfh_auto Member

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    I bought my nephew an Optima. It's an accurate muzzleloader. I recommend getting the cleaning patches that are presoaked.
    Use real black powder or 777. I have had nothing but bad luck with Blackhorn209.
     
  23. Ratshooter

    Ratshooter Member

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    Great post. And I feel that the Inline rifles went a long way towards killing off the traditional rifle market. People wanted to hunt Black Powder special seasons but didn't want to learn how to do something new like shoot a patched round ball or use a flintlock or even the much more reliable cap lock rifles. They wanted easy and quick.

    I wish they would only allow inline rifles during regular seasons and make BP seasons no scopes, no inlines. I wouldn't care if the special seasons were flintlock only like they do in Pennsylvania.
     
  24. ldlfh7

    ldlfh7 Member

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    I bought a CVA wolf because I was not sure if muzzleloading was going to stick with me and did not want to make a large initial investment. 4 years later I still have the wolf and hunt with it every year. There are more expensive and nicer looking inlines out there but I do not require anything greater. Don't let the wolf fool you with the low price tag, I can shoot tight groups at 100 yards with my fixed 4x scope. It's pretty fun to shoot too! Just make sure you learn to clean it real well after shooting. Good luck and have fun.
     
  25. red rick

    red rick Member

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    I am impressed with the size of your deer , not the tool used to take him . I do hunt to put meat in the freezer and using a inline is not getting around any laws in my state . You don't think the States that still allow them and scopes don't know what they are ? I have a TC Hawken & Renegade along with a inline , a lot of purist don't consider them a true muzzleloader and maybe I don't either. I say use whatever you want as long as it is legal , just as long as you are out there hunting . You could use a long bow and not get in a tree , that might impress me .
     
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