Looking at two weapons

[Partyguy816]

First would be the Cetme and second would be the new "Tommy Gun". What would you buy? I like the Cetme because it's a .308 which would make a good hog rifle, but I like the looks and history of the tommy gun.....Choices, Choices......

 

[demusn1979]

i hope your not planning on carrying the tommy gun on hog hunts in the hills.

 

[Partyguy816]

Nope. Mainly just like the Tommy cause it's a Tommy. The Cetme may be used on hog hunts just cause I can. If I had the money I'd buy both, but that's out of the question. LOL. Are there any down falls to the Thompson? Isn't it made by Auto Ordance or something?

 

[Rupestris]

You'll probably put alot more ammo down range with the Tommy gun. Consider how much you like to spend on ammo then buy what you can afford to feed.

 

[Father Knows Best]

You'll probably put alot more ammo down range with the Tommy gun. Consider how much you like to spend on ammo then buy what you can afford to feed.

Huh? Since when is .45ACP significantly cheaper than milsurp 7.62x51? I buy good (Lake City, Portuguese, Belgian, Spanish, etc.) 7.62x51 surplus for $200-250 per thousand rounds. Cheap .45ACP costs at least that much.

 

[Father Knows Best]

First would be the Cetme and second would be the new "Tommy Gun". What would you buy?

Neither. Between the Auto Ordnance "Tommy" and the CETME, I'd probably pick the CETME. For a little more than the CETME, though, and still a whole lot less than the Tommy, you can get one of these:

It's a PTR-91 from JLD Enterprises. You're probably aware that the CETME is virtually identical to the HK 91. The HK 91 is the semi-auto version of the German G3. The G3 is an improved version of the CETME.

The PTR-91 is basically an HK 91 built in the U.S. by JLD Enterprises. HK 91's haven't been imported since around 1989, so prices on original HK 91's are ridiculous ($2,000+). The PTR-91 is better built and better finished, can be had in a wide variety of configurations, and retails for around $700 for the standard model. That's only a little more than a CETME, and still at least a couple of hundred bucks less than a Tommy. For more info, check our JLD's website: www.jldenter.com

 

[Partyguy816]

Thanks for the advise. I'll check and see if my gun shop has one. I think they had something made by JD something which was a little more than the Cetme and less than the tommy. I'm going over there in a couple of hours so I'll make sure I check that one out as well.

Thanks.

 

[Rupestris]

Huh? Since when is .45ACP significantly cheaper than milsurp 7.62x51? I buy good (Lake City, Portuguese, Belgian, Spanish, etc.) 7.62x51 surplus for $200-250 per thousand rounds. Cheap .45ACP costs at least that much.

Sorry. I wasn't clear. Thats my point exactly.

It isn't cheaper. I can't speak for PG816 but I'd probably do more plinking and use more ammo (rapid fire, fun shooting) with the Tommy gun than I would a .308 EBR.
If ammo cost was an issue, I'd go with the CETME.

cs

 

[Father Knows Best]

Ahhh ... my fault for jumping to conclusions.

I dunno. If I had both, I'd probably shoot the CETME/G3/91 more than the Tommy. The only exception would be if I had a full auto tommy. A real 1928A1 would be awesome, but they start at $20,000 and go up from there, so that's not really an option.

I do have a PTR-91, and I shoot it quite a bit. It's one of my favorite rifles.

 

[jobu07]

I'll just chime in on the ammo issue.

I'm not questioning that the CETME would be a superb hog rifle, however, you would want to use some nice commercial hunting ammo to take down the hog. The problem with that is soft commercial brass can have a case head seperation in a CETME when it is ejected. It doesn't always happen, but it can happen. And that would ruin your day of hunting.

 

[Jim Watson]

Those neutered Tommy Guns are just silly. Get a real rifle, CETEME or whatever.

 

[DMK]

Tommy guns are bulky and heavy and shoot a little pistol cartridge. It's a nice gun in full auto where the weight is an advantage, not so much in semi.

Comparing the semi-auto version to a full size battle rifle? No contest. Go with the CETME or PTK-91.

 

[hksw]

I agree with the above. The Tommy is a bit heavier than the CETME (or any other HK clone/copy of the same configuration). For a gun that heavy to shoot only .45 slugs on semi seems (to me) not very efficient. It is pretty cool looking though and would stirke up conversations by just holding it.

 

[iamkris]

How can you expect anyone to give a meaningful answer unless they know why you are buying a rifle in the first place? It's like asking someone to recommend a car without knowing what you care about...cost, styling, room, economy, etc.

Are you interested in one of these for: historical value, uniqueness, power, hunting, target shooting, cost to buy, cost to operate, etc. Any answer without knowing these is just so much chatter.

Edited to add: sorry, that sounds really harsh and I didn't mean for it to come off sounding so preachy. Just a pet peeve of mine around asking for advice without any context.

 

[Partyguy816]

IAMKRIS: I like the Cetme because it's a .308 which would make a good hog rifle, but I like the looks and history of the tommy gun

So that said I'd like the Cetme in a .308 for a hog rifle, and a tommy gun for the history behind the gun. Maybe I didn't make it clear the first time around??

Anyways,
FATHER KNOWS BEST: Thanks for your advise on the PTR-91. I just got back from the local store and walked out with a PTR-91F. I was told that the G3 and Cetme mags would not fit this weapon. He also said that he wasn't sure though too. Some new kid, everyone else was helping someone else... What accessories can be had with this new toy?

 

[The Grand Inquisitor]

I own a CETME and I've played with the new Thompsons and I don't really think this is even much of a question. The CETME is a great gun while the Thompson is a big, heavy, unwieldy clunker that will take up more space than anything else.

I was surprised at how accurate and reliable my CETME is, and while I haven't really sat down with it to range it, I can get 3-4 MOA out of it with surplus ammo on an average day. 7.62x51 is plentiful and fairly cheap while .45ACP is always kind of expensive.

With the CETME you'll have a bonafied battle rifle that you can beat, batter, and shoot and it will do exactly what you tell it to and keep on kicking, while with the Thompson you'l have a clone of a sub-gun that has a few extra inches on the barrel, isn't fully automatic (like it was intended to be), and weighs about as much as a 3 year old.

You'll get some conversation value out of the Thompson, but when it comes down to a quality rifle to shoot and master, the CETME is the clear winner.

 

[Father Knows Best]

How can you expect anyone to give a meaningful answer unless they know why you are buying a rifle in the first place? It's like asking someone to recommend a car without knowing what you care about...cost, styling, room, economy, etc.

Are you interested in one of these for: historical value, uniqueness, power, hunting, target shooting, cost to buy, cost to operate, etc. Any answer without knowing these is just so much chatter.

Edited to add: sorry, that sounds really harsh and I didn't mean for it to come off sounding so preachy. Just a pet peeve of mine around asking for advice without any context.

That was a little harsh. He gave us some pretty good clues as to what his priorities are.

In addition, sometimes it's easy to answer because the answer is independent of the person's priorities. For example, if you ask whether you should buy a Winchester 94 or a Marlin 1894 in .44 Magnum, I'm going to give you the same answer every time. IMNSHO, the Marlin is clearly superior in every way. The only exception would be someone who really, really has a thing for the "Winchester" name on rifles, and if that's the case then he's probably not going to bother to ask for advice, and wouldn't really listen to it even if he did.

This is one of those cases. There is just no good reason to buy a semi-auto replica Thompson subgun over a CETME/G3/91, other than the possibility that someone is just really jonesing for a neutered tommy gun, and if that's the case, then nothing we say here will matter.

 

[Father Knows Best]

I just got back from the local store and walked out with a PTR-91F. I was told that the G3 and Cetme mags would not fit this weapon. He also said that he wasn't sure though too. Some new kid, everyone else was helping someone else... What accessories can be had with this new toy?

That's ridiculous. G3 mags fit it fine. It IS a G3, fercryinoutloud. The PTR-91 is made on HK-licensed tooling that was previously used to build G3's for the Portuguese Army.

Any G3/HK91 accessory fit it, with one caveat -- the PTR-91 rifles use a heavier barrel. Anything that attaches to the barrel may need to be clearanced a little bit.

I have 50 or so G3 mags that I bought for less than $2 each. They all work just fine with my PTR-91. I've also put on a Tapco claw mount with a STANAG-to-picatinny adapter to mount a scope, and I've swapped the buttstock and forearm for surplus G3 pieces. They all fit perfectly. My new forearm is the wide type (sort of triangular shaped, like old M16 handguards) with the bipod attached. I've also added a cheekrest to the buttstock to make use of the scope easier. Finally, I had Bill Springfield do a trigger job on it.

 

[Father Knows Best]

So you know what I'm talking about, here's a pic from JLD's website of a PTR-91 with the wide forearm/bipod:

And here's one with a claw type scope mount:

And I forgot one other accessory. I added a Tac-Latch (http://www.taclatch.com/) to mine to make mag changes quicker and easier. The stock mag release button is kind of awkward.

 

[iamkris]

That was a little harsh. He gave us some pretty good clues as to what his priorities are.

Yes...I retract what I said since it really wasn't my place to add that and you're right...I missed the clues.

For example, if you ask whether you should buy a Winchester 94 or a Marlin 1894 in .44 Magnum, I'm going to give you the same answer every time. IMNSHO, the Marlin is clearly superior in every way.

Hmm, I don't agree with your logic (in a friendly way ). The Winchester vs Marlin arguement isn't relevant to what my "peeve" was because the use cases are so close, both lever actions, both 44 Mag, both about the same price, both "American", both steel and wood, same weight, same length...in that specific instance, it gets down to a brand preference/quality issue...although I agree with you on the Marlin vs. Win 94.

This is one of those cases. There is just no good reason to buy a semi-auto replica Thompson subgun over a CETME/G3/91, other than the possibility that someone is just really jonesing for a neutered tommy gun, and if that's the case, then nothing we say here will matter.

Sorry...can't agree with you. CETME vs. Thompson aren't even close choices because they have such different use cases. If I asked "I really love the idea of both guns but I can't decide between a CETME and a Thompson [only have money to buy one right now]. What I want is a historical arm that is relatively easy to shoot, never more than 50-100 yards, useful for home defense and a little bit of hunting [hogs maybe] and I can spend around $800. I live in an apartment. Most of the places I can shoot are indoor with the occasional outdoor. My significant other wants to shoot also so recoil and muzzle blast are an issue"...would you really recommend the CETME/G3/91? That isn't "jones-ing" for a Thompson...of the 2 choices, it is the clear winner given the use cases defined.

Anyway, sorry for highjacking the thread...will try to refrain from that in the future. For what it's worth, I'd have a hard time deciding also. As FKB has said, you'll get a lot more utility out of the CETME/G3/91 line than the Tommy Gun. Of the 3, I'd go with the JLD-91 also. FKB has given excellent suggestions for upgrades, especially for the mag release as the stock one is indeed not the best.

 

[longhorngunman]

For the mags go to www.interordnance.com , I bought ten of em' for my Cetme. 8 out of 10 fit fine, two will get worked over with a dremel. Good purchase, the PTR is much better built than the Century Cetme's like mine, yet I'm very happy with the Cetme, I can do 2-3 inch groups with it at 100yards, in the hands of a real shooter like my gun range buddy, it will do 1 MOA with surplus ammo. Also while the PTR is a better gun no question, I't ain't just a couple of hundred more. Cheapest I've seen them new is around $700, with shipping and transfer fee I was out $332 for my Cetme. Since I've stocked up on plinking ammo, I'll let the cat out of the bag and give you the site for the cheapest .308 that is decent quality, www.southernammo.com . Mixture of four countries but mainly Israeli, by far the cheapest stuff I've found other than the Indian crap. Out of 600 rds fired I've only had one FTF.

 

[Partyguy816]

Thanks for the ammo link. I picked up some Wolf yesterday since that was all they had at the time. What is the opinion on Wolf for the PTR? I've used it in both of my AR's and AK's for about 4 years with no problems.

 

[longhorngunman]

I'd be careful about using that steel cased Wolf ammo . I've heard of major extraction issues with using steel case ammo in these delayed blowback guns. The extraction force on these rifles is intense(you'll notice just how far these things sling empty cases) and may rip the steel or lighter commerical cases apart. Do a little googling and you'll find out a lot more. If the makers of the PTR say it's fine, well then I'm wrong and sorry to ill inform you.

 

[Partyguy816]

Thanks I'll give them a call on Monday. Does anyone here use WOLF in the PTR?

 

[ceetee]

Hunting with milsurp ammo

Lots of guys have had good success with pulling the bullets on milsurp ammo, and using the cases for reloading with their own powder/bullet combinations. Some guys get 1-2 MOA accuracy (plenty good enough for most hunting situations) by tailoring the loads to their guns.

Mind the laws, though. Many places don't allow semi's for hunting, and those that do usually have a five-round-mag limit. It would really suck to bag a big ol' boar, just to get cited for having a twenty-round mag...