looking for high accuracy at long distance

[newdude]

USSR gave you the best advice anybody can give you for a "inexpensive" way to get to 1500 yards.

The 6.5x55 will make it in fine fashion and its waaay easier on barrels than a 6.5x284.

This is pretty much true. What they are leaving out is that there are higher BC bullets, with the berger 140vld, it will make it to 1500, but just there. If that is not fast enough, try the .260AI, it will send them as fast as the 6.5/284 but is nicer to the barrels. And the savage is the way to go for this, even if you can't make it to 1500 for some reason, you will still be able to do any range beneath that.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

And a 300 Win Mag can easily push a 240 grain SMK (BC .711) at 2,600 fps...and that certainly will make it to 1500 yards (1580 to be exact) and still be supersonic.

But its going to be hell on your shoulder...even in a 13 lb. rifle...I know this to be a fact from experience.

You're talking about flight times of around 2.5 seconds or more...things get tricky (VERY tricky) at that distance.

 

[newdude]

Using gvnwst's calculator, a .300WM would not, but according to the one i normally use, it would, but just barely. gvnwst, are you sure your calculator is right?

 

[gvnwst]

Ummm.....well, i guess it must not be... Now a few calculators have been different than mine, so there must be something wrong with it. I will email the people and find out. USSR and taliv--sorry for the confusion.

 

[WNTFW]

talentandskill

I would suggest to get together with some long range shooters in your area. Finding them may be a bit of work. Your asset is the range, their asset is there knowledge & skill. Could be a great thing.

Depending where you are your range may be a rarity. I have one rifle range close by 50 yds indoors. The rest are 100, 200, 225, 300 and 600 are about an hour drive away. 1000 yds is 3 hours minimum one way. I shoot at 1 with target pits. It is an experience to have the bullets crack overhead. It is cool to see someone shoot sub 1/4 moa from 600 on a target right in front of you. I'm not that good so I'm not bragging on myself. we use radios and some target protocol for safety.

The average police sniper shot is close. Generally 70yds or there abouts and is a surgical precision shot. Military snipers tend to be longer.

You should pursue it. Like the guy earlier posted even if you get started out to 400 that would be good. A .22lr out to 150-200 can be a lot of fun and learning. Just get something going & start learning. Having your own range is a luxury most of us will never have.

 

[taliv]

gvnwst, don't sweat it. all the calculators give different results. often it's due to different BCs. here's some interesting reading for you:

http://shootingsoftware.com/ballisticsupport.htm#A1

Why when I run a G1, G5 & G7 trajectory for a boat tail bullet and let Shooting Lab convert a G1 B.C. do I get less drop with G1 than either G5 or G7? This does not seem right if the G1 standard projectile shape resembles that of a round nosed 45 ACP slug.

The ballistic coef. for a bullet indicates how it's velocity will erode in flight compared to a "Standard Projectile", which Ingalls defined as 1 inch in dia., weighing 1 pound, OF THE SAME SHAPE. This last part of his definition is what most seem to ignore.

In the 1880's Ingalls and Mayevski measured velocity from the swing of a heavy steel plate when hit by a bullet. The tools available were obviously crude by modern standards. They did not understand how drag increases as the bullet approaches the sonic barrier. In the late 40's better instrumentation was available so the original Ingalls drag model was modified to show some increase when approaching the SOS but the standard projectile used for the calculations still resembled the shape of a round nosed 45 ACP slug. This was the beginning of the G1 drag model. More were developed over the years at the U.S. Army's BRL in Aberdeen, MD for other bullet shapes.

Those who shoot boat tails to 1000+ yards always experience more drop at long ranges then is indicated by G1 based calculations. This is because when compared to perhaps the least aerodynamic of all bullet shapes (G1) resulting B.C.'s are significantly exaggerated. It is also why you see published 30 caliber VLD B.C.'s as large as .750! You don't need to be a physicist to realize if a bullet only weighs 220 grains (compared to a 1 lb. standard) and is less than 1/3 the diameter, it cannot possible retain 75% of the standard projectiles velocity. Indeed if a proper G7 standard projectile were used as the basis for calculations a VLD bullet's B.C. will only be around .270 or less.

In this example even though the G1 standard projectile is not aerodynamic and it's drag model has more velocity erosion than any other bullet shape, the exaggerated B.C. of .750 will generate a trajectory model much flatter than a 30 caliber VLD bullet could ever hope to achieve. Using a G7 standard and a proper B.C. of around .270 and results will more closely correspond to "real world" results.

Converting a G1 B.C. may not always work correctly depending on how the G1 B.C. was determined (see next paragraph). The best results will be achieved by calculating a B.C. using measured velocity erosion (or trajectory data with velocities).

Why when I use the same B.C.'s I use with other software the trajectory output does not match?

The B.C.'s you have been using are probably based on the G1 drag model and you entered the B.C. after changing the drag model from G1. When using G1 based B.C.'s always set the drag model to G1 first. Then, when you change to a different drag model Shooting Lab will offer to adjust the B.C. for the new drag model. Or, simply leave the drag model set to G1 if you are attempting to duplicate other output and do not care about long range accuracy.

Many G1 B.C.'s are actually the calculated "Average" of B.C.'s for a range of "Reasonable" velocities and may be over or under stated at higher or lower velocities. You can use published trajectory tables to find the actual G1 B.C. for a muzzle velocity. Use the "Calculate B.C. From 2 Range Velocities" option and enter the muzzle velocity, a down range velocity and distance between them (make sure the selected drag model is G1 or the basis for the table and check the "sea level" conditions dialog button). The resulting B.C. will be the actual sea level G1 B.C. for the published table's muzzle velocity and the Shooting Lab's trajectory output will be nearly identical.

Assuming the published table was developed from actual range firing tests (which few are these days) you can then change the drag model to one that better matches the shape of your bullet. When prompted to adjust the B.C., click affirmative. The resulting trajectory output will better match "Real World" experience at long ranges.

surprisingly, this is the subject of considerable debate

edit: just so that's clear, the drag model used to create most of the ballistic coefficients that are advertised by bullet mfgs actually assumes the shape of the bullet is similar to a round-nosed handgun bullet, and indexes it where a BC of 1.0 would be a 1 pound, 1.0 caliber slug, then they compensate for differences by publishing different BCs for given velocities.

edit again: the guy who developed that software is a member here and used to post in the handloading forum

 

[Ridgerunner665]

After thinking about it...just get a 26 inch barreled 308 and load it up with some moly'd Berger 210 Match bullets (not VLD's)...at 2550 fps they are good to 1500 yards at 1300' elevation.

 

[gvnwst]

Very intresting read taliv. So the difference between our numbers is probably due to what system they use to label a BC in? Or am i still confused. There is a small box at the bottom of the page on mine, and it says "adjusted bc" so maybe it automatically adjusts to the "correct" bullet data... the bad thing is now i don't know if any online calculator is right, and to believe that a 6.5x55 can make it to 1,700 Which would be good new, as a .260rem rifle is high on my list, and i wa thinking that i could shoot no further than 1.2k.......

Does your calculator base off of G1, or G5/G7?

And what material would that 100caliber 1lb slug be made of, there has to be a constant there.

 

[taliv]

dunno. i certainly don't claim to be an expert here. I use that RSI shooting lab software from the link most of the time, but the program is installed on my home machine, so when i'm at work it's easier to look stuff up quick by just going to jbm online.

the RSI software is pretty nifty although I couldn't tell you how it compares to much more popular programs like exbal or the sierra software. it does let you modify and use lots of different drag profiles (e.g. flat base, boat tail, VLD)

read this: http://shootingsoftware.com/coefficients.htm

 

[USSR]

I don't know where some of your sonic numbers are coming from, but here is what I have always believed (just a little over 1100fps):

At a temperature of 15 degrees Celsius and at sea level, the speed of sound is 340.3 m/s[2] (1225 km/h, or 761.2 mph, or 1116 ft/s) in the Earth's atmosphere.

As to the effect of a bullet going trans-sonic, I have seen it with a shooter I was paired with in F Class competition a couple years ago, and it ain't pretty.

Don

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Agreed...but I think that the bullets are fine until they actually fall below the speed of sound.

That when the sound waves are bunched up around them and knocking them around.

Lots of people believe that the bullets get beat up even when they are still at mach 1.2...IMO they would still be well ahead of the sound waves at that point.

I say this because I don't have a single 168 grain 308 load that is over mach 1.015 at 1000 yards...and they still hit the targets.

I'm no pro...and don't claim to be, I just know what has worked...even though I'm often not quite sure how it works.

 

[gvnwst]

USSR--i made a typo, i was meaning 1,080fps rather than 1,180. The difference between that number and yours is due to temp, i can't remember what temp 1,080 was at...

 

[talentandskill]

Update:

i spent a good many hours at a local 1000yd range today with a few of there rentals

remington 700 cambering the .300 winmag and a couple shots of the .300 win ultra mag

a .338 savage cambering .338 lupua

and bushmaster 50bmg

the range is 1000yd with excellent pit service (they put colored disks into your hits so you can see them from distance) about 6-7 mph back wind and about 55 degrees outside was a great day for shooting

i really like the 700 with the .300 win mag (ultramag feels like its its somewere in between the .300 and the .338, personally its kinda like an overpriced .330 winmag) it got down range nicely and was very accurate at that distance

the .338 savage was a beautiful shoot loved the gun and the round, was able to put em right were i wanted em just like the remington 700 but the rounds were quite a bit more expensive and after checking msrp on some rifles so is the gun

now the bushmaster though very intimidating, after shooting the other two first i was not very enthusiastic about it, it gets down range quite a bit slower and almost made me feel like a russian chucking Molotov's down range lol
really had to lob them in in comparison to the other two but with a round that large it completely destroys all properties of inertia and im quite sure it could make a 1500yd shot and and then some

overall

.338 savage- if you have plenty of cash to play with i think id go with this one because its defiantly got the right stuff for the job but at the end of the day im going to bypass it for the remington 700

remington 700- will definantly get the job done, gets the round down range quickly and accuately, the .300 winmag is readily available everywere and under half the cost of the .338 lupua

ultimate reason for the choice: the lower cost of rifle and rounds will give me more cash for some really nice glass because im trying to keep this project under 4grand

and lastly the bushmaster, fun to shoot because we all know we get that little twinkle in our eyes whenever someone says .50 cal
overall a nice gun but it takes a bit longer for it to get down range and seeing as it sits at $4000 for the gun alone i would have a .50 cal with a walmart special scope and nobody wants to be that guy

as for telling were im shooting at those distances im thinking about getting some steel place about half inch and cutting it into sections much like the lines on a round target and mounting pushbutton switches behind them so that when a round strikes a segment of the target it will light up the area of the target that i hit on a LED display, it just my little home brew, i made a small one for my .22 so i wouldn't have to walk down range to check my results because i was bored one day and it works pretty good

if any of you want my plans for it ill draw them up for you and send em to you so you can build your own

 

[talentandskill]

sweet ass rifle

just wanted to show u all a rifle i found while browsing about the net
http://www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm
lol now its got me thinking of a project to work on after this one.
i work on the CIWS(google it, its badass) for the navy and could probly get my hand on some key components rather easily because it also fires the 20mm and i have some old barrels and breach bolts laying about the shop only problem with useing them is CIWS uses 460 volt firing circut to fire the rounds even though 15-30 will fire the 20mm rounds i would still have to build an electric trigger

 

[Jim Watson]

Man, a thousand yard rental range, complete with pit crew; what a luxury. Where is that?

The price of any caliber target ammo, you really need to get into handloading.

Hope your electric target works out for you. Let us know. See also
http://www.flashtarget.com/
for ideas on setup and use.

Set your .22 target up at 200 yards and you will get a lot of cheap convenient practice and experience. A .22 at 200 is about like a .30 at 1000 as far as wind allowance goes.

 

[taliv]

yeah, that's what i want to know! who rents a 1k range with rental guns and pit crew??

heck, can you even get that at whittington?

 

[WNTFW]

"as for telling were im shooting at those distances im thinking about getting some steel place about half inch and cutting it into sections much like the lines on a round target and mounting pushbutton switches behind them so that when a round strikes a segment of the target it will light up the area of the target that i hit on a LED display, it just my little home brew, i made a small one for my .22 so i wouldn't have to walk down range to check my results because i was bored one day and it works pretty good

if any of you want my plans for it ill draw them up for you and send em to you so you can build your own"

Please send me some plans on this.

The common term is "pasters" used to cover up the bullet holes.

There is only one range with pits in LA (I think) and you have to do everthing yourself. It is a private club. It is nice to be the only guys on the range for 4 hours straight though. Some of time is setup & takedown but I still feel like I'm living high on the hog out there.

Ditto on what Jim Watson said on the handloading & .22LR.

 

[talentandskill]

i cant remember the name of the range that was my first time going to that one but its about 45 minutes south of virginia beac, VA
i dont really pay attention to the ranges arround here because i have my own place to shoot

 

[gvnwst]

talent--i would like those plans also, if you would PM me please.

 

[45B@cav]

+ however many on the .338 Lapua it's one Bada@# Cartridge.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

Hey guys.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=154213

It looks like Zach Smith wrote the articles, as well as posting the links.

Hope it helps.

 

[gvnwst]

Big + to above, Zak is a genius. It was his articals that intrested me in LR shooting.

 

[Zak Smith]

Agreed...but I think that the bullets are fine until they actually fall below the speed of sound.

I have had a little different experience. I have a .308 load which should be traveling at about 1300 fps at 1350 yards. Yet, the hit rate on a large (2.5 MOA) target was only about 50%. At the local temperature, the speed of sound was 1118 fps. When I switched over to an identical rifle set up in .260 (with a computer terminal velocity of over 1400 fps), my hit rate was 90%+. The 308 load performed fine, as expected, at 1000 on the same day.

Here are two other rifles I've used at the same location

............... Larger version of above photo.


............... Larger version of above photo.

The 7RM hits the 1350 target with boring regularity (same experience I had with my 338). The 260 is right in there, but lags a little bit. I was able to hit the 1760 (mile) with my 7RM last weekend.