hi, ive always wanted to get into long distance, accurate shooting. One of my friends was a former marine and we used to go shoot his garand at the range. He really wanted to get a sniper rifle but with a wife and 4 kids had other priorities. I recently got a ruger 10/22 target model (i'll be able to pick it up on the 10th) and Im thinking about getting a .308 to learn the ropes of some accurate shooting. I dont think i need something totally modified since im mostly a beginner....what do you think would work well? 700sps?
recommendation for a rifle
- Thread starter mallard
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No contest. Savage 10fp or 110fp. I don't like the new ones with the muzzle brake. heres a good one...http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=145314572
These are bedded right and have a great trigger. Also barrel and receiver quality is very high. Price is hard to beat. Check the "help me choose a rifle thread" on this forum for a picture of what my savage rifle could do.
These are bedded right and have a great trigger. Also barrel and receiver quality is very high. Price is hard to beat. Check the "help me choose a rifle thread" on this forum for a picture of what my savage rifle could do.
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I'll do Zak a favor and post a link to his website for him. This is must read material for people looking at getting into longe range shooting.
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-optics/
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-shooting/
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-optics/
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-shooting/
Both will need better stocks. My Savage wears a Choate, and the SPS, a B&C Medalist. Both very good, 1/2 MOA average @ 100yrds, shooters with my handloads.I challenge my friends who claim to have .5 moa rifles. I set up at about 800 yards and set out 5 clay pigeons against a hill. I ask "so you say you have a solid half moa rifle. Lets see you hit 5 pigeons in a row." I know i haven't been done it yet and neither have they.
Now I am money at 500 and 600 with my 6.5, so I would say I am about moa.
Now I am money at 500 and 600 with my 6.5, so I would say I am about moa.
thank you all for the replies. Budget can be up to 2 or 3k if needed. I noticed tac-ops had some nice rifles but they seem to be set up with a lot of tweaks to get them very accurate, something that be missed on a n00b such as myself. I hadnt looked into Savage before but that seems a good rifle and a prudent price range for getting started.....this aint no .22lr at 20 yards anymore.
i guess the rifle is the easy part, finding a range in connecticut is the hard part (only a couple public ranges left)
i guess the rifle is the easy part, finding a range in connecticut is the hard part (only a couple public ranges left)
if your budget is 3k then I would look at a stock rifle with a premium scope. trust me, a proper scope will make more of a difference in your shooting than a custom stick.
just buy a plain ole 700p or 10fp and get you a ffp scope with matching reticle and knobs.
for instance, if you get a scope will a mil based reticle make sure the knobs adjust in .1 mils. nightforce f1 or premier reticles heritage would both fit in that budget.
just buy a plain ole 700p or 10fp and get you a ffp scope with matching reticle and knobs.
for instance, if you get a scope will a mil based reticle make sure the knobs adjust in .1 mils. nightforce f1 or premier reticles heritage would both fit in that budget.
cwtitan
Member
If you are in the 2-3 K range I would go with the Remington LTR package that is from the factory with leupold optics and all the extras in a hard case. Can be bought for around 2500 on GB.
cwtitan
Member
Here is the link to my suggestion. IMO a great setup. You would pay this much for these items if bought separately anyway.
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=145112825
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=145112825
let me set up my case against leupolds. first off the glass is usually sub par,reticle don't match the knobs, only a few ffp models,and they are overpriced.
Big deal most of my shooting buddies say. People have been shooting leupold for years right.
lets say we have a target out to 700 yards. shooter with leupold takes his shot and misses by what I read from my ffp scope to be 1 mil. I then ask the shooter to call his shot. a long pause because the shooter realizes the scope wasn't turned all the way up and on his second focal plane scope and now all those mildots or hash marks are useless. Then I usually get the big "I don't know, a few feet I guess." Now the shooter dials what he thinks is a few feet until he walks his bullets onto the target.
if the shooter had a ffp mil adjusted mil reticle scope, he could have simply read the miss as 1 mil in his reticle and dialed this scope that same 1 mil. Life gets much simpler when everything matches up.
Big deal most of my shooting buddies say. People have been shooting leupold for years right.
lets say we have a target out to 700 yards. shooter with leupold takes his shot and misses by what I read from my ffp scope to be 1 mil. I then ask the shooter to call his shot. a long pause because the shooter realizes the scope wasn't turned all the way up and on his second focal plane scope and now all those mildots or hash marks are useless. Then I usually get the big "I don't know, a few feet I guess." Now the shooter dials what he thinks is a few feet until he walks his bullets onto the target.
if the shooter had a ffp mil adjusted mil reticle scope, he could have simply read the miss as 1 mil in his reticle and dialed this scope that same 1 mil. Life gets much simpler when everything matches up.
rtn
Member
High Power
I'll take a different route and suggest a high quality Service Rifle upper mounted on a good, mil-spec lower.
Why? Shooting iron sights at 200, 300 and 600 yards will hone your marksmanship skills like nothing else. Also, the SR upper can always be swapped out for a scoped varminter, Match upper, plinker, etc. Also, .223 ammo has little recoil which allows you to shoot many rounds without getting beat up.
Your $3K will buy you a stripped lower, lower parts kit, high quality 2-stage trigger, top of the line SR upper, and top of the line varmint/Match upper, spotting scope, and sling, with a few bucks to spare
Have a look at these White Oak Armament or Compass Lake Engineering for uppers.
http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/
http://www.compasslake.com/service.htm
I'll take a different route and suggest a high quality Service Rifle upper mounted on a good, mil-spec lower.
Why? Shooting iron sights at 200, 300 and 600 yards will hone your marksmanship skills like nothing else. Also, the SR upper can always be swapped out for a scoped varminter, Match upper, plinker, etc. Also, .223 ammo has little recoil which allows you to shoot many rounds without getting beat up.
Your $3K will buy you a stripped lower, lower parts kit, high quality 2-stage trigger, top of the line SR upper, and top of the line varmint/Match upper, spotting scope, and sling, with a few bucks to spare
Have a look at these White Oak Armament or Compass Lake Engineering for uppers.
http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/
http://www.compasslake.com/service.htm
hometheaterman
Member
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- Feb 28, 2009
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I'm also not a Leupold fan. I only know 3 guys myself included that have them and 2 of us have had to send them into repair. Now granted they weren't Mark 4 scopes either but it's still been enough of my experience that I don't think I'd buy a Leupold again. Mine has been in for repair twice and I think it's finally fixed. It doesn't seem that great even when it's fixed though.
Jim Watson
Member
Most factory .308s have 12" twist rifling, the rest have 10" like the .30-06.
Either will handle the 175 gr match bullet which is as heavy as I care to go.
Either will handle the 175 gr match bullet which is as heavy as I care to go.
never mind...i found it on wiki.
I guess i need to take a look at the types of ammo I intend to use before I should determine which twist is appropriate:
I guess i need to take a look at the types of ammo I intend to use before I should determine which twist is appropriate:
Twist rate
For best performance, the barrel should have a twist rate sufficient to stabilize any bullet that it would reasonably be expected to fire, but not significantly more. Large diameter bullets provide more stability, as the larger radius provides more gyroscopic inertia, while long bullets are harder to stabilize, as they tend to be very backheavy and the aerodynamic pressures have a longer "lever" to act on. The slowest twist rates are found in muzzleloading firearms meant to fire a round ball; these will have twist rates as low as 1 in 60 inches (1,500 mm), or slightly longer, although for a typical multi-purpose muzzleloader rifle, a twist rate of 1 in 48 inches (1,200 mm) is very common. The M16A2 rifle, which is designed to fire the SS109 bullet, has a 1 in 7-inch (180 mm) twist. Civilian AR-15 rifles are commonly found with 1 in 12 inches (300 mm) for older rifles and 1 in 9 inches (230 mm) for most newer rifles, although some are made with 1 in 7 inches (180 mm) twist rates, the same as used for the M16. Rifles, which generally fire longer, smaller diameter bullets, will in general have higher twist rates than handguns, which fire shorter, larger diameter bullets.
In 1879, George Greenhill, a professor of mathematics at the Royal Military Academy (RMA) at Woolwich, London, UK[9] developed a rule of thumb for calculating the optimal twist rate for lead-core bullets. This shortcut uses the bullet's length, needing no allowances for weight or nose shape[10]. The eponymous Greenhill Formula, still used today, is:
where:
C = 150 (use 180 for muzzle velocities higher than 2,800 f/s)
D = bullet's diameter in inches
L = bullet's length in inches
SG = bullet's specific gravity (10.9 for lead-core bullets, which cancels out the second half of the equation)
The original value of C was 150, which yields a twist rate in inches per turn, when given the diameter D and the length L of the bullet in inches. This works to velocities of about 840 m/s (2800 ft/s); above those velocities, a C of 180 should be used. For instance, with a velocity of 600 m/s (2000 ft/s), a diameter of 0.5 inches (13 mm) and a length of 1.5 inches (38 mm), the Greenhill formula would give a value of 25, which means 1 turn in 25 inches (640 mm).
If an insufficient twist rate is used, the bullet will begin to yaw and then tumble; this is usually seen as "keyholing", where bullets leave elongated holes in the target as they strike at an angle. Once the bullet starts to yaw, any hope of accuracy is lost, as the bullet will begin to veer off in random directions as it precesses.
Conversely, too-high a rate of twist can also cause problems. The excessive twist can cause accelerated barrel wear, and also induce a very high spin rate which can cause high-velocity projectiles to disintegrate in flight. A higher twist than needed can also cause more subtle problems with accuracy: Any inconsistency within the bullet, such as a void that causes an unequal distribution of mass, may be magnified by the spin. Undersized bullets also have problems, as they may not enter the rifling exactly concentric and coaxial to the bore, and excess twist will exacerbate the accuracy problems this causes. Lastly, excessive spinning causes a reduction in the lateral kinetic energy of a projectile, thereby reducing its destructive power (the energy instead becomes rotational kinetic energy).
MinnMooney
Member
http://www.savagearms.com
(click on the video to see Savage's Model 12 Palma rifle)
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=144841669
(List price is $1795 but they're selling for $1200 - $1300 NIB)
These are winning matches right out of the box with absolutely no "tweeking" whatsoever. They are a beautiful rifle and certainly look the part of the long distance shooter with the total adjustability of both the trigger (6 oz. - 2.5 lbs.) AND the stock (LOP, cheek weld height & heel drop)
With a good optic resting on top, you should be able to budget at the $2000-$2500 range.
This is from the Hornady site talking about their new .308 Palma Match ammo :
Next is the 308 Palma load. Two years
ago, Hornady submitted a round of
ammunition to Palma’s governing body
for evaluation. This “as issue” round
we developed for them is now part of
our Match line of ammunition. Loaded
with the superbly-accurate 155 grain
A-MAX™ Match bullet, the 308 Palma
load is designed from the ground up
as the ultimate 1,000 yard
308 Winchester load.
P.S. I own 8 Savage rifles, from hunting rifles (Model 10, 11 & 16) to varmint (Model 12 BVSS) to compitition (Model 12 LRPV & F-Class). I like other brands, also, but never have I had such consistent accuracy as with Savage. Not an inaccurate rifle in the bunch.
(click on the video to see Savage's Model 12 Palma rifle)
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=144841669
(List price is $1795 but they're selling for $1200 - $1300 NIB)
These are winning matches right out of the box with absolutely no "tweeking" whatsoever. They are a beautiful rifle and certainly look the part of the long distance shooter with the total adjustability of both the trigger (6 oz. - 2.5 lbs.) AND the stock (LOP, cheek weld height & heel drop)
With a good optic resting on top, you should be able to budget at the $2000-$2500 range.
This is from the Hornady site talking about their new .308 Palma Match ammo :
Next is the 308 Palma load. Two years
ago, Hornady submitted a round of
ammunition to Palma’s governing body
for evaluation. This “as issue” round
we developed for them is now part of
our Match line of ammunition. Loaded
with the superbly-accurate 155 grain
A-MAX™ Match bullet, the 308 Palma
load is designed from the ground up
as the ultimate 1,000 yard
308 Winchester load.
P.S. I own 8 Savage rifles, from hunting rifles (Model 10, 11 & 16) to varmint (Model 12 BVSS) to compitition (Model 12 LRPV & F-Class). I like other brands, also, but never have I had such consistent accuracy as with Savage. Not an inaccurate rifle in the bunch.
Jim Watson
Member
In the first place, Greenhill is an exceedingly coarse tool for modern bullets and barrels.
In the second place, you get little choice on twist rate in factory rifles other than .223. To quote a usually reliable source (me), nearly all .308s are 10 or 12 twist and will stabilize all usual bullets for the round.
In the third place, even custom rifles in the various .30 calibers are over a pretty narrow range. I have heard of 14 twist score benchrest rifles shooting little 133 grain flatbase bullets. A Palma rifle which will never see anything but 155 grain bullets might well have a 13" twist. There are a lot of M1As and M14 Match rifles out there with 11" twists as they tried to get some improvement by splitting the difference between the usual even numbered rates for use strictly with 168, 173, and 175 grain boattails.
My only aftermarket .30 barrel is a 10 twist because the vendor did not have an 11 as recommended by an old M14 shooter. I think I would have been at least as well off with a 12.
In the second place, you get little choice on twist rate in factory rifles other than .223. To quote a usually reliable source (me), nearly all .308s are 10 or 12 twist and will stabilize all usual bullets for the round.
In the third place, even custom rifles in the various .30 calibers are over a pretty narrow range. I have heard of 14 twist score benchrest rifles shooting little 133 grain flatbase bullets. A Palma rifle which will never see anything but 155 grain bullets might well have a 13" twist. There are a lot of M1As and M14 Match rifles out there with 11" twists as they tried to get some improvement by splitting the difference between the usual even numbered rates for use strictly with 168, 173, and 175 grain boattails.
My only aftermarket .30 barrel is a 10 twist because the vendor did not have an 11 as recommended by an old M14 shooter. I think I would have been at least as well off with a 12.
USSR
Member
Don't get all hung up on the Greenhill formula. Assuming you are buying a factory .308 rifle, any of the twist rates offered will work just fine with any ammo you are likely to shoot. Myself and alot of other guys have shot 190gr and heavier bullets out of our 1-12" twist .308 barrels with great success. Pick a rifle with a heavy contour barrel that fits you well. Oh, and to take advantage of your rifle's potential accuracy, I suggest you take up reloading for it.
Don
thanks for the replies....after considering that im just getting back into shooting i decided to go with an AR15 with iron sites.
they have a carbine with 16" barrell and small buttstock (its a colt match) and a 20" HBAR match with a standard stock. The 20" has a fixed handgrip on the upper but from what I read I can swap out the uppers.
will i need a gunsmith to do that?
the 16" is 1400 and the 20" hbar is 1550.....those seem like good prices
they have a carbine with 16" barrell and small buttstock (its a colt match) and a 20" HBAR match with a standard stock. The 20" has a fixed handgrip on the upper but from what I read I can swap out the uppers.
will i need a gunsmith to do that?
the 16" is 1400 and the 20" hbar is 1550.....those seem like good prices
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