looking for info on an old pistol

[screative]

My neighbor would like some information on an old gun he has that came from his grandfather. He said his grandfather told him that it was used by a relative that was a security guard for Napoleon Bonaparte. It is shaped to look like a small stapler. He has taken it to a couple gun shows but no one is familiar with it. They thought it might be a Browning flinklock gun (I know nothing about guns so bear with me if my terminology is not right) It is made of metal and has a symbol that looks a bit like a crown with CF under it. Under that it says BREVETTE and under that it says 54. On the barrel of the gun it looks like the letters ELL.

He would like to know if it is worth anything or any information I can find for him.

 

[Jim Watson]

Shaped to look like a stapler?

You said he said?

ID will take pictures and a close description or closeups of all markings.

 

[mete]

Brevette just means patented . For that one you certainly need photos.

 

[screative]

pictures of gun opened.

Here are 2 pictures I snapped last night. I will have to get the gun from him again to take more.

 

[Jim K]

The gun is almost certainly not a flintlock since there is no sign of a cock, a pan or a frizzen. It looks like it is intended to open out 90 degrees more so the sights on the body line up with the front sight on the barrel.

If the "ELL" on the barrel looks like this

E
L G

(The E is over the space in a triangle, but the space suppressor feature of the site moves it.)

in an oval the gun is probably Belgian as that is the Liege proof mark. "Brevete" means "patented" in French, which is also spoken in the lower part of Belgium, so Belgian guns also use the word.

I cannot tell from the pictures what kind of ignition system it has, but anything more recent than flintlock could not have been used in the time of Napoleon.

Can you open the gun, as for loading, and try to get some pics.

Jim

 

[screative]

I took more pictures today

Took more pictures today but my camera isn't good enough to get a closeup of the markings on the barrel. The letters ELL or ELI are enclosed in an oval, they are all in line. It looks like there may be 2 tiny letters below that but we can't read them.

 

[Ron James]

I've been studying the photos, drawing diagrams, talking notes, studying the photos, oh to see the loading gate , the back side and inside the handle. However the more I study it the more I wonder. Perhaps a " fixed " gun or better known as a " trap " gun. The roundels or lanyard rings look as if they were designed for a long spike or rod to be inserted. The flat bar looks to be both a main spring and hammer. there are cutouts along the barrel to gain purchase, lift the bar and the "trigger" is pushed ( toward the handle )to the rear to keep it raised. The "trigger is released by being pushed from the rear or pulled from the front ( as if by a cord attached to the hook). An early burgler alarm gun. The gun was attached to the floor, cocked and a cord attached from the hook in the trigger to the door or window. when the cord was pulled, it released the flat bar/hammer, striking a pinfire cartridge. The gun looks more Belgium than French, it fires some type of pinfire cartridge which dates from what? the 1870s? The more I study it the less I think it is a personal defence gun. Just my throughts.

 

[Ron James]

On reflection, I still believe it's an "Trap" gun, but it could be a precussion rather than pinfire. If we could only see the rear area. The main spring/hammer could crush a precussion cap on release. In the case of it being a front loader, then only a charge and wading could be loaded, making it a true alarm gun.

 

[Jim K]

Hi Ron and guys,

I had the same thought about the bar being both spring and hammer and about a trap gun. One thing is that it appears to have a front sight, something I have never seen on a trap or alarm gun.

I thought at first the loops might be some kind of sights, which led me to wonder if the gun could be "unfolded" more so the "handle" becomes like a short stock rather than a 90 degree pistol grip, but I think your theory sounds better.

Napoleon died in 1821 so, while the gun could have some association with someone who knew him, fixed cartridges did not exist in his lifetime and even percussion caps would be iffy.

Jim

 

[screative]

more pictures of gun

Here are pictures of the back of the gun while closed and the top of the gun while opened. Does anyone have any idea if it is worth anything?
Thanks,
Karen

 

[Ron James]

Pin fire, it appears that when the handle is folded as in concealed carry the cartridge would fall out. it would only be retained if it was unfolded. A strike against it for a small pocket pistol. Why would you carry a unloaded pistol. I wondered about what apeared to be front sights also, I wonder if it's just a large rivet holding the spring in place. I very much agree that it is dated at least into the 1860s or 70s, I don't know when the pinfire came into being and tonight I don't feel like research ( I know , some call it lazy, I call it cutting the grass and a cold beer). Still a very intresting piece of firearm history. Perhaps in a pinch it could be used as a regular firearm.

 

[Ron James]

I'm sorry, you asked about value, If it is an alarm gun, and it does appear to be one, it would be of intrest to someone who collects such items. After looking up like items in Flayderman's I would guess 75 to 150. Again thats just a guess. In my own case I have a bad habit of buying high and selling low so thats the best I can do. If it was mine, I would make a nice shadow box for it and hang it in the living room. Good Luck.

 

[Lo.Com.Denom]

The pinfire is said to have been patented in 1835, but only perfected by Houiller in 1846/7. Well, that's what it says here, anyway... Seems that it only caught on a bit later.