Looking for load…

[Mr_Flintstone]

I’m looking for the slowest powder that has a published load for 125 grain cast bullets in 38 Special. I have found a load for Alliant 2400 in Lyman #44. Has anyone seen anything slower, maybe IMR 4227 or the like?

I’m not interested in powder efficiency or worried about unburned powder. Let’s call it an academic exercise. I just want to know what the slowest powder is.

 

[cfullgraf]

Why?

When I am looking for less than top speed loads, i
move to a medium burn rate powder. For 357 Mag that would be something like Unique.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Why?

When I am looking for less than top speed loads, i
move to a medium burn rate powder. For 357 Mag that would be something like Unique.

Actually, I have been doing some testing as to the boost in speed of 38 special when moving from revolver to rifle length barrels. I have actually concluded my testing with jacketed data with some interesting results, but I’ve been hard pressed to find slow powder data for anything close to 125 gr cast bullets. My goal was to use the same powders across a range of light and heavy bullets of each type. I know that something like IMR 4227 will burn horribly in a revolver, but in a 20” barrel it should do much better. I’ve not seen any unburned powder with testing so far out of my rifle.

I may be able to take the IMR 4227 jacketed load data for 125 gr XTP bullets and run it through Gordon’s Reloading Tool with inputs for the cast bullets that I have to see what would be safe, but I prefer to start with a published load. Safety shouldn’t be an issue with 4227 as I don’t think I could stuff enough uncompressed powder in the case to make it dangerous in 357 Magnum guns.

 

[Varminterror]

I know that something like IMR 4227 will burn horribly in a revolver, but in a 20” barrel it should do much better.

Be mindful, this isn’g always how internal ballistics works out. In many cases, longer barrels just mean more opportunity for fouling to cake on the bore, and the burn doesn’t actually improve. We’re usually gasifying powder very quickly, within an inch or two, so the burn efficiency is really a measure of oxidizing blast at the muzzle, not an actual measure of how well the powder was gasified.

There should be plenty of magnum powder data like H110, Lil Gun, 4227, 2400, etc for 38spcl+P out there which you can reference and determine scalability to your desired pressure.

Odds are, if you’re coming out of a rifle, you are completely safe running 38+P data anyway.

But in principle, we have fast and slow burning powders because heavy and light bullets don’t really want the same powders. They don’t build pressure in the same way, the gases don’t expand at the same rate, so it’s not terribly apt to say we want ONE powder to do it all.

 

[JFrank]

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Be mindful, this isn’g always how internal ballistics works out. In many cases, longer barrels just mean more opportunity for fouling to cake on the bore, and the burn doesn’t actually improve. We’re usually gasifying powder very quickly, within an inch or two, so the burn efficiency is really a measure of oxidizing blast at the muzzle, not an actual measure of how well the powder was gasified.

There should be plenty of magnum powder data like H110, Lil Gun, 4227, 2400, etc for 38spcl+P out there which you can reference and determine scalability to your desired pressure.

Odds are, if you’re coming out of a rifle, you are completely safe running 38+P data anyway.

But in principle, we have fast and slow burning powders because heavy and light bullets don’t really want the same powders. They don’t build pressure in the same way, the gases don’t expand at the same rate, so it’s not terribly apt to say we want ONE powder to do it all.

I have been checking the bores of my test revolver and rifle as I go, an as of yet I haven’t gotten any appreciable buildup of carbon. GRT shows complete powder burn in my test rifle barrel, and about 70% powder burn in my test revolver with 4227. It shows a higher percentage with 2400, and almost universally a complete burn with all with powders slower than Unique.

I’m testing a broad range of powders as to see which powders improve velocity, and to what extent when moving from a service length revolver to a rifle length barrel with different bullet weights. It’s surprising at the increase you get with some combinations, but with others you actually get a pretty big reduction in velocity when going to longer barrels. As for the data in 38 special +P, I will agree for jacketed bullets. I even found data for Win 296, but data is lacking for magnum powders with cast bullets under 140 grain. Hence my question.

View attachment 1160720

This was the first thing I consulted when picking my test powders; 2 fast, 2 medium, and 2 slow powders.

 

[Varminterror]

My point is rather that “unburned powder” doesn’t always mean you’ll have flakes or kernels left over, but simply rather that the gaseous combustion has not completed. Folks get caught up on thinking smokeless powder burns like firewood, and in a true thermodynamic sense, it does, but meaning it pyrolyses first before burning.

 

[Walkalong]

maybe IMR 4227 or the like?

SR-4759 if you can find any. AA-5744 if you can't.

 

[gwpercle]

The slowest powder listed in Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook 4th edition for 38 Special - 125 gr. cast bullet - Lee #358-125-FN ... isn't very slow ... it is Unique !
Start Load - 4.3 grs. Unique @ 773 fps
Max Load - 5.3 grs. Unique @ 944 fps

I looked but that is all there is in Lyman #4 ... there are some loads with slower powders listed but with heavier weight bullets ... such as the 150 gr. to 175 gr. SWC's .
125 gr. cast bullets and slow powder just doesn't seem to be a good combination .
Gary

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I finally gave up on trying to find published data for cast 125 gr bullets with IMR 4227, and used Hodgdon #25 data for 125 gr XTP bullets and ran it through GRT with my cast bullets and backed down the charge until it was just below 17,000 psi. I’m not going to post that data because I don’t want anyone to build any loads for an older standard pressure 38 special with it. Suffice it to say, it was nearly a full case. It gave me a velocity out of my 4” barrel of 970 fps and 1353 from my rifle, which was just shy of the Alliant 2400 data that I did find.

Thanks to all who contributed, but since this was for testing purposes only, and is not a load I’m likely to continue to use, I’ll just leave it where it is.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm curious, where are you going to get a .38 Special with a 20" barrel?

A .357 Magnum, sure, but a .38 Special???

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I'm curious, where are you going to get a .38 Special with a 20" barrel?

A .357 Magnum, sure, but a .38 Special???

Well, I’m shooting them out of a .357 Henry, but there are rifles out there chambered in 38 special only. Here’s an example of one. https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/cimarron-1873-deluxe-short-38-special/

And here’s another https://winchestergunshop.com/product/winchester-model-1866-short-38-special-lever-action-rifle/

Personally, I think 20” is too long a barrel for a 38 Special (only) rifle. 16” would make a better option. Most powders burn out long before 20” and if you’re not using a large volume of powder to get enough gas to push it all the way down the barrel, it’s going to start slowing back down before it leaves the barrel. I ran into a few loads that lost a great deal of velocity going from revolver to rifle.

 

[AJC1]

Well, I’m shooting them out of a .357 Henry, but there are rifles out there chambered in 38 special only. Here’s an example of one. https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/cimarron-1873-deluxe-short-38-special/

And here’s another https://winchestergunshop.com/product/winchester-model-1866-short-38-special-lever-action-rifle/

Personally, I think 20” is too long a barrel for a 38 Special (only) rifle. 16” would make a better option. Most powders burn out long before 20” and if you’re not using a large volume of powder to get enough gas to push it all the way down the barrel, it’s going to start slowing back down before it leaves the barrel. I ran into a few loads that lost a great deal of velocity going from revolver to rifle.

I'd be interested in your test results, and if you did a few 15x bullets to see if it tracked or acted very different.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Well, I’m shooting them out of a .357 Henry, but there are rifles out there chambered in 38 special only. Here’s an example of one. https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/cimarron-1873-deluxe-short-38-special/

And here’s another https://winchestergunshop.com/product/winchester-model-1866-short-38-special-lever-action-rifle/

Personally, I think 20” is too long a barrel for a 38 Special (only) rifle. 16” would make a better option. Most powders burn out long before 20” and if you’re not using a large volume of powder to get enough gas to push it all the way down the barrel, it’s going to start slowing back down before it leaves the barrel. I ran into a few loads that lost a great deal of velocity going from revolver to rifle.

I would also be very interested in your test data.
I didn't know anyone was clambering a levergun in .38 Special. Thanks for the info.

BTW, I wouldn't use any powder slower than 2400 in a 38 Special case, even in a long barrel.

 

[Random 8]

It's a bit off your topic, but I did play with 125 jacketed and 115 (9mm) jacketed with heavy charges of H110 in my Henry. These were full. 357 mag loads.. They were lightning bolts, comparable to an SKS with expanding bullets on soft targets. I've found HS6 to be my happy powder for. 38+p cast in this rifle. I know there are over pressure. 38 loads with H110 under some rocks on the internet, but running. 357 loads will be more prudent.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I'd be interested in your test results, and if you did a few 15x bullets to see if it tracked or acted very different.

I would also be very interested in your test data.
I didn't know anyone was clambering a levergun in .38 Special. Thanks for the info.

BTW, I wouldn't use any powder slower than 2400 in a 38 Special case, even in a long barrel.

I still have 158 grain cast to go. It should be fairly easy to get the load data, so I should have it finished tomorrow. I’ll try to post the results then.

 

[P Flados]

I know you mentioned using GRT, but here is some Quickload (QL) info for you to cross check with. It says that at 38 Sp pressures, 2400 is about as good as you will get for a 20" barrel with only Enforcer looking better (for the powder brands that I typically consider).

QL shows the 4227s as petty far down the list and the 4198s even farther down.

I am not sure how valid any of these software predictions are with vey long barrels and very low power ammo. I am not sure that it reflects heat loss from the burning powder into the barrel that would reduce pressure in the second half of bullet travel.

Cartridge          : .38 Special (SAAMI)         
Bullet             : .356, 125, LEE 356-125-2R         
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.550 inch = 39.37 mm         
Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm         
          
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested         
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand         
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet         
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.         
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !         
          
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time         
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms         
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------         
Ramshot Enforcer                    72.9     13.0     0.84    1604    81.4    14875    1713   1.570  ! Near Maximum !         
Alliant 2400                        70.1     11.6     0.75    1563    79.3    14875    1596   1.598  ! Near Maximum !         
Accurate 4100                       74.9     13.5     0.87    1558    75.7    14875    1594   1.592  ! Near Maximum !         
Accurate No.7                       54.5     10.3     0.66    1553    88.8    14875    1512   1.599  ! Near Maximum !         
Accurate No.9                       61.4     11.4     0.74    1536    82.3    14875    1506   1.605  ! Near Maximum !         
Shooters World Heavy Pistol         60.8     11.4     0.74    1536    82.3    14875    1506   1.605  ! Near Maximum !         
Accurate TCM                        60.8     11.0     0.71    1528    83.7    14875    1473   1.609  ! Near Maximum !         
Alliant POWER PISTOL                53.7      7.4     0.48    1515    95.8    14875    1361   1.610  ! Near Maximum !         
Hodgdon H4227                       91.9     14.7     0.95    1489    62.2    14875    1474   1.625  ! Near Maximum !         
IMR 4227                            89.7     14.3     0.93    1481    62.2    14875    1430   1.628  ! Near Maximum !         
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle        80.0     13.0     0.84    1476    61.2    14875    1426   1.642  ! Near Maximum !         
Accurate 5744                       78.1     13.0     0.84    1476    61.2    14875    1426   1.642  ! Near Maximum !         
Shooters World Auto Pistol          40.7      7.3     0.47    1464    97.6    14875    1199   1.636  ! Near Maximum !         
Accurate No.5                       40.6      7.3     0.47    1464    97.7    14875    1198   1.636  ! Near Maximum !         
IMR 4198                           101.0     15.8     1.02    1460    55.1    14875    1361   1.646  ! Near Maximum !         
Accurate 1680                       89.9     16.4     1.06    1457    53.7    14875    1404   1.649  ! Near Maximum !

 

[Riomouse911]

I think you found out that powder companies don’t often publish loads for extremes like your tests are asking for. They all seem to stay pretty much in-lane with published data for particular uses; such as .38 Spl loads using bullets, powders and charges most suitable for 2”-8” barreled handguns. The idea is to keep everything within a certain pressure range for universal use and create loads with acceptable accuracy, etc.

It is the Elmer Keith’s and Dick Casull’s of the world who stepped outside these norms to find what the limits of cartridge and firearm are. Looks like you are following a path that they, and many others before, have traveled. Be careful and good luck with your quest.

The slowest powder I will use in a .38 Spl is probably AA#5, and that is with a 158-160 gr bullet.

Stay safe.

 

[Alaskamike]

I'm curious, where are you going to get a .38 Special with a 20" barrel?

A .357 Magnum, sure, but a .38 Special???

I shoot 125 grain .38 special loads through my 20" .357 Rossi 92 all the time, and it works beautifully. Like shooting a .22, and very accurate out to about 50 yards.

 

[Alaskamike]

As an academic exercise, I think you'd need to take into account that there are a couple more variables besides just burn rate. I think what you're looking for is not only powders slower than 2400, but such powders that will still work safely at pressures less than 20kpsi.

4227 is one that people have used quite a bit in this application. .45 Colt with 4227 at standard pressure is an excellent load, despite the amount of unburned powder in revolvers. I think in .38 special out of a carbine it would work very well.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

As an academic exercise, I think you'd need to take into account that there are a couple more variables besides just burn rate. I think what you're looking for is not only powders slower than 2400, but such powders that will still work safely at pressures less than 20kpsi.

4227 is one that people have used quite a bit in this application. .45 Colt with 4227 at standard pressure is an excellent load, despite the amount of unburned powder in revolvers. I think in .38 special out of a carbine it would work very well.

I plan to talk a little about that when I finish all my load comparisons. IMR 4227 is a powder that I have used across all my loads, and has worked quite well (so far). I even found some data for Win 296, but I decided against using it because of its sensitivity to reduced pressure loads.

I misspoke earlier though. I had it in my mind that I used six powders in my loads, but I only used five. I was going to use both Titegroup and Bullseye, but I decided to only use Titegroup as they are fairly similar powders. So, all my loads used Titegroup, Unique, AutoComp, 2400, and IMR 4227 since they are spread across the 38 special spectrum and I had plenty of each powder for testing.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I shoot 125 grain .38 special loads through my 20" .357 Rossi 92 all the time, and it works beautifully. Like shooting a .22, and very accurate out to about 50 yards.

I wasn't speaking about shooting a .38 Special in a Magnum gun, I was asking about a dedicated long barrel in .38 Special.

 

[2ndtimer]

Here is Speer No. 10 data for IMR-4227 with their 125 gr jacketed bullets.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I finished the 158 gr load testing today, but I had some plumbing issues I had to take care of, so I won’t have the summary done until tomorrow. Stay tuned…

 

[.45Coltguy]

I wasn't speaking about shooting a .38 Special in a Magnum gun, I was asking about a dedicated long barrel in .38 Special.

A friend has a Marlin CBC lever action rifle chambered in .38 spl only, no .357. You won't find those every day. Only lever gun like that I've seen. It's fairly modern, as it has the cross bolt safety. Don't know what year of manufacture. Beautiful CCH and octogon barrel.