Looks like Cerebus killed off H&R1871 Firearms

[alsaqr]

i have owned several H&R single shot rifles. i currently own two along with several barrels. Two of my barrels had chambers that were out of spec. One .223 had a huge out of round chamber with a very short leade. H&R re-ground their chambering reamers.

In 1995-96 i worked in MA and lived in Westminster. Sometimes i ate breakfast on the weekends with a couple folks who worked for H&R. Both loved working for H&R and wanted the best for their company. H&R was never fully modernized; maybe they lacked the money.

In about 2000 the assets of H&R were bought by Marlin, a company with quality control problems of its own. Then Marlin was acquired by Remington. In about 2008 Remington closed the Gardner, MA H&R plant, laying off 200 workers. It was all down hill from there.

 

[DPris]

They were not high-grade guns, but at their best they were decent affordable single-shots that filled a niche for a lotta people.

I gave a 20-guage to a nephew as his first gun, had to have the hinge worked on, good little shotgun.
I bought a synthetic .22 Sportster after working with it. Used it to help a nephew & a niece learn to shoot rifles & both did very well with it. Both liked it. Had to have the trigger worked over a bit, nice gun & I quite like it. Accuracy's on par with guns costing twice as much.

I was never able to get a Handi Rifle in .45-70 I had to shoot straight with lead, sold it. Did well with jacketed, but I'd bought it for lead.
Could not get a .38-55 to work with lead hand loads, argued with the company over chamber dimensions, their view was that it was a hunting gun & nobody would be shooting lead through the guns in that caliber, so they were set up for jacketed & were not going to change anything. Sold that one.

I've had mixed results, as others have too, but I'm sorry to see the break-tops go.
When they were at the top of their game, they were serviceable and a good value for those who couldn't afford a Remington, Winchester, or Ruger to hunt with, and excellent guns for newbies to learn on.

Again- H&R is not yet "going out of business", just getting out of the breaktop manufacturing business.
Denis

 

[R.W.Dale]

The imported shotguns are not gonna keep the brand afloat. They can be sold under more well known names controlled by the parent co

This is THE END for h&r

 

[DPris]

That's why I said "not yet".

Quite possibly may not survive on the imports, but the company is not closed, just dropping their long-standing US production.
Denis

 

[R.W.Dale]

The "term in name only" applies here and only briefly then.

 

[Cee Zee]

"Good" has been replaced by "good enough".

Good enough is good enough after all. Just like many people see no reason to buy a Corvette that looks beautiful and will go 200 mph there are plenty of people that think good enough truly is good enough. I can certainly see that POV. There are many things where I don't buy the best. I buy good enough. I'm sure that's true for most of us. I wish I had the money to buy nothing but the best but I don't. I do have some very nice firearms and I truly appreciate the difference. But I also have some Walmart cheap NEF Chinese import shotguns. They work very well and in some ways are better than the 870 they imitate almost completely. They are plenty good for certain jobs including my HD weapon. I'd just as soon not lose my 870 to an investigator if push comes to shove and I trust those "good enough" firearms with my life. They are actually more expensive than my other HD weapon, an SKS I bought for under $100 way back when. No one says the quality of those is bad (not if they know what they're talking about). They're not a Accuracy International rifle or anything but mine has not failed me in well over 20 years. It was cheap and it's plenty good enough.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

While these H&R single shots have their own loyal fans, the reality is that these guns are very low sellers.

Yep. It wasn't management that killed off H&R, it was the consumer -- you and I -- who failed to buy their products in sufficient numbers to keep the company profitable.

 

[Aragon]

Yep. It wasn't management that killed off H&R, it was the consumer -- you and I -- who failed to buy their products in sufficient numbers to keep the company profitable.

I agree. I bought an H&R Buffalo Classic Rifle last summer from my neighbor for next to nothing (it was a gift to him and he doesn't particularly like guns.) I was astounded to later learn that H&R tried to sell them for over $450/each. I don't think they are worth anywhere near that. I certainly wouldn't have paid that much for one.

 

[kapie]

Basically,People are poor shots and want something that has a clip and has multiple shot abilities to make up for their poor shooting abilities. The H@R is a perfectly good weapon if you can shoot well.
Over the years i just keep meeting all kinds of people who are horrible shooters. So this just shows a change in hunters over the years.
You take one of those Buffalo rifles and shoot something and hit it decently. It falls over dead with one shot. Doesn't move far.
So add in some other factors.Right choice of caliber and being close enough for you to place a shot well. My opinion.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Basically,People are poor shots and want something that has a clip

I have a pre-WWII Model 70 Winchester that has a clip slot, but I don't know of anyone manufacturing clip-loading rifles these days.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I have a pre-WWII Model 70 Winchester that has a clip slot, but I don't know of anyone manufacturing clip-loading rifles these days.

Remington and savage make then.

Here's a pic of the rem

 

[mgmorden]

Basically,People are poor shots and want something that has a clip and has multiple shot abilities to make up for their poor shooting abilities. The H@R is a perfectly good weapon if you can shoot well.
Over the years i just keep meeting all kinds of people who are horrible shooters. So this just shows a change in hunters over the years.
You take one of those Buffalo rifles and shoot something and hit it decently. It falls over dead with one shot. Doesn't move far.
So add in some other factors.Right choice of caliber and being close enough for you to place a shot well. My opinion.

I don't really see it that way. The value segment of rifles is being replaced mostly by cheaper bolt actions. Realistically you can't really "spray and pray" with a bolt action. They're just not that quick to cycle (and those who CAN cycle them that fast typically aren't bad shots). For most people cycling the bolt is only marginally faster than opening the action and inserting a new round.


The bottom line is that bolt actions by their very design nature tend to be more accurate, and are better suited to rimless cases than the work-arounds H&R used. At the end of the day even if you're just shooting it once, MOST people would rather hunt with or shoot a bolt action. H&R's problem was simply that their product's price kept creeping upwards over the years while bolt actions prices kept going down.

When a bolt action cost twice as much, the Handis were a good value. When you could pay an extra $25 and get a Savage Axis or a Marlin XL over a Handi? Only someone feeling nostalgic is going to be purchasing the Handi.

Plus, even for those who absolutely must have the cheapest rifle you can find - even for those where that $25 difference would matter - Rossi undercut them on price (and don't work that bad - my brother got 4 deer this year with a Rossi .270).

They when they couldn't compete on "the cheapest rifle you can buy" or "the most bang for your buck" fronts anymore they just didn't have a market.

I've still got one in .30-30 (and a Pardner in .20ga), that I'll be hanging on to, but I doubt I'd have ever bought another even if they were still making them.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I agree that their rifles in "normal" bolt calibers might not have been cost/feature competitive, but they did have unique products:

- Show me another compact .45-70 for $250 - $300?

- The single-shot utility shotgun (put in closet, behind truck seat, SHTF) that ANYBODY can operate with a 10 second lesson. Try that with a pump...

- The hammer fired single shot .22 for beginner shooter training.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Remington and savage make then.

Here's a pic of the rem

Those are MAGAZINES, not clips.

A clip is a U-shaped strip of metal used to hold cartridges by the rim or extraction groove so they can be introduced into a magazine.

A clip slot is a dovetailed cut on the front edge of the receiver bridge to accept a clip and hold it while the shooter strips the clip by pressing the cartridges down with his thumb.

As I said, my pre-WW II Winchester Model 70 has a clip slot, but post-war Model 70s do not.

 

[mgmorden]

Those are MAGAZINES, not clips.

A clip is a U-shaped strip of metal used to hold cartridges by the rim or extraction groove so they can be introduced into a magazine.

A clip slot is a dovetailed cut on the front edge of the receiver bridge to accept a clip and hold it while the shooter strips the clip by pressing the cartridges down with his thumb.

As I said, my pre-WW II Winchester Model 70 has a clip slot, but post-war Model 70s do not.

I think his point was that the manufacturer's packaging specifically refers to them as clips. While in my own speech I do tend to be a bit more precise and use the same definitions you do, using clip and magazine interchangeably is entrenched enough into the commonly used lexicon that being pedantic over the use of "clip" instead of "magazine" just isn't productive.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

And yet old timers do have an obligation to pass on the lore of the rifle to the younger generation.

 

[mgmorden]

I agree that their rifles in "normal" bolt calibers might not have been cost/feature competitive, but they did have unique products:

- Show me another compact .45-70 for $250 - $300?

- The single-shot utility shotgun (put in closet, behind truck seat, SHTF) that ANYBODY can operate with a 10 second lesson. Try that with a pump...

- The hammer fired single shot .22 for beginner shooter training.

Unique products, but where's the market?

.45-70's are the epitomy of niche product these days. The average consumer doesn't want one. Heck the average consumer doesn't even know what one is.

- SHTF shotgun - fun to dream about (and forbidden to discuss here), but generally not needed. There has been no (and likely will never be a) SHTF moment in this country and the people with guns are the ones who want them. They have way more than 10 seconds to familiarize themselves with how they work.

- Hammer fired single-shot .22 - truthfully, how many people were going out and buying those things, even for training? I'd wager most people were learning on auto-loaders (10/22's mainly) because people would rather shoot that. You might be able to make a case for the hammer fired single shot being more appropriate, but if the sales figures don't receive a bump for that then economics trumps philosophy.

I would say they needed to diversify, but "they" really already have. H&R are a division of the same parent that owns Marlin, Remington, etc. This move really is more just a case of a parent company shutting down an unprofitable line of products rather than a company actually going out of business.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Simple economics killed off H&R1871 firearms. Not enough people wanted their products at the price they were charging.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Those are MAGAZINES, not clips.



A clip is a U-shaped strip of metal used to hold cartridges by the rim or extraction groove so they can be introduced into a magazine.



A clip slot is a dovetailed cut on the front edge of the receiver bridge to accept a clip and hold it while the shooter strips the clip by pressing the cartridges down with his thumb.



As I said, my pre-WW II Winchester Model 70 has a clip slot, but post-war Model 70s do not.

I for one am not nearly pedantic enough to care what someone calls them especially given that YOU, I and EVERYONE else knew what he was talking about.

 

[Cee Zee]

Unique products, but where's the market?

.45-70's are the epitomy of niche product these days. The average consumer doesn't want one. Heck the average consumer doesn't even know what one is.

That was always true of certain big bore rifles. Once you got past 30.06 and 30-30 most people were lost. That doesn't mean there wasn't something of a market for those .4x caliber rifles. And the HandiRifle was certainly the quickest way into that game. If you're hiking in bear country and you want something to stop a brownie you want something bigger than that 30.06. And most likely one shot is all you will get anyway. And hunting those large critters called for a big rifle too. I have never had the pleasure but if I get the chance I hope there are still rifles around that will do the job.

BTW the .45-70 has made a pretty big comeback over the past few years. Marlin made some very nice lever guns in that caliber. I almost bought one but I have no real use for a .45-70 other than making my friends cry when they shoot it (depending on the load of course). I have one buddy that won't even shoot my 30.06. If I handed him a .45-70 and he fired it before he knew what he was getting into it might have been entertaining enough to justify the price of the rifle. But I wouldn't do that to him actually. I'm not sadistic.

It's the .444 Marlin that I think will be missed. You can buy an H&R version of that rifle for under $300. You just can't find that kind of deal on a rifle like that just anywhere. Yes they have limited usage IMO but that doesn't mean no usage. There are people like, need and want them. They don't kick like a .45-70 but they can still bring down the biggest critters on the planet.

 

[Duckdog]

I have to know why some feel a bolt tends to be more accurate by their "design"? A break open has a barrel that locks up tight. It has a firing pin that strikes the primer, and, walla, the bullet heads down a rifled barrel. Just like the bolt action. Quite simply, that dog doesn't hunt in my opinion.

Face it, these guns have been around a long time, so the design must have been successful. I do respect the opinions of those who don't seem to like them, but don't presume that you can seemingly look down on us folks who do. Value is in the eye of the beholder, and what you feel is fair to pay for a firearm, most likely will be outrageous to me.

I shoot and cast thousands of rounds a year, and quite frankly, these firearms always do their job is I hold up my end of the bargain by properly sizing my bullets, proper alloy, proper powder selection, and good shot placement.

Go over to Greybeard's forums and go under the HR Centerfire Rifle forum and you'll find many folks who like these firearms and are sorry to see them go.

 

[danez71]

And yet old timers do have an obligation to pass on the lore of the rifle to the younger generation.

I'm rapidly approaching middle-aged. My family, going back 2 generations before me, used the word that Remington printed on that package; clip.

Other gun manufacturers have used the word 'clip' going back over 1/2 century.

 

[Cee Zee]

I'm rapidly approaching middle-aged. My family, going back 2 generations before me, used the word that Remington printed on that package; clip.

Other gun manufacturers have used the word 'clip' going back over 1/2 century.

I've always thought the gun board crowd made way too much out of terminology. I believe it's a military thing where you were drilled about using the exact term for everything and it has carried over here. In the world I know, many people who have been around guns for so long it goes beyond a single generation use the word "clip" for what people here jump you for saying when it refers to those dohickeys that hold bullets and plug into certain rifles, shotguns and pistols.

If they want to talk that way it's fine with me but I do think they come off as a bit strident about such things which can scare off the newbies who start to wonder what else they will get jumped for saying. People know what you mean in the real world when you say clip. That's communication. It's good enough IMO. But I don't want to make a federal case out of this. That's my opinion and you don't need to try to change it. Go ahead and try if you must but I can already tell you it won't work. Sorry.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I have to know why some feel a bolt tends to be more accurate by their "design".

Because they are


And the answer is simple

On a bolt action the locking and firing mechanism is inline with the bore and direction bullets travel.

Break action single shots are off axis with these parts.

Any minute play in the system is amplified 2' away at the muzzle which happens to be attached to the moving parts of the locking mechanism on these single shots. On a bolt action the only thing that has to move is the bolt and it does so independently of the muzzle.

 

[Duckdog]

I do agree that there is potential for a bolt to be more accurate than a break action in the strictest sense of the word, however, a bolt with less than optimal clearances will most likely be as accurate or even less accurate than a break action with a good, tight, lock-up. If everything with that bolt is not perfect and exactly consistent from shot to shot, to say because it is a bolt is will be more accurate is simply not true. There are just too many variables. I personally feel that that the play in a break action that is being spoke of is very minute, and will make little to no difference to the average shooter, which most of us are.I know it certainly does not make a difference in the cast bullets I cast and shoot. If we are talking about bench rest accuracy, then so be it. You're correct in the strictest sense of the word, because we are talking about a completely different beast.

I am finding there is a lot of play on words on this site, which is disappointing, and almost seemingly intended to be belittling. If that is not the intention, that is not how it comes across.

Hopefully no one takes this the wrong way, as this is just a general observation, but having thousands of posts does not make a person smarter, but may simply be the result of someone spending much more time on this site and possibly someone having much less to say.