Looks like Cerebus killed off H&R1871 Firearms

[R.W.Dale]

As an encore fan and someone who has owned a lot if handis I can tell you lockup inconsistencies and even sandbag position matter a great deal when trying to get the most out of the platform.

It is truly impressive to see firsthand how a 1x hinge pin can make a mediocre encore into a passable shooter.

YES IT MATTERS and it doesn't take a word play to see it.

 

[Davek1977]

I don't think anyone is trying to be "smarter" or "superior" or belittling when addressing questions here. Not liking an answer doesn't mean you were given the wrong answer. For the reasons stated, the average bolt gun will be more accurate than the average single shot, due to simple mechanics. Yes, as you claim, you might very well find a single shot that shoots better than a bolt action with loose tolerances, but that would certainly be the EXCEPTION to the rule, and not something commonly encountered. Bolt actions are the most accurate of common action types, period. *That* dog might not hunt in your book, but then again, not every dog is a hunting dog, and not every dog hunts Bolt actions, by nature of their design, have more inherit accuracy than other action types, even single shots.

 

[USAF_Vet]

i liked the look of the handi rifle over the contender but without the ability to swap barrels without special fitting from the factory it was fireseeable the handi rifle would be discontinued. In a limited market already it cannot compete with the competiton that doesnt require any fitting at all.

I think it's this as much as anything else is what contributed the end of the single shot offerings from H&R.

The only reason to send receivers in for new barrel fitting is the difference in receivers themselves. They had one built to sustain shotgun and pistol caliber pressures and another to sustain the rifle pressures. Put a rifle barrel on a pistol/ shotgun frame and you run the risk of having it blow up in your face. Not exactly a risk a company like H&R or Freedom Group or whoever they're owned by would be willing to take.

Rossi, on the other hand, built frames strong enough to contain pressures for all barrels/ calibers on a single frame (with a few exceptions, I think).

This alone is what held me back from buying an H&R Handi. I wanted barrels for shotgun, rifle and pistol calibers, but they never had a full set in what I wanted, so I never bothered because I didn't want the hassle of shipping the thing back and forth every time I wanted a new caliber.

I never got the Rossi, and I'm pretty sure their Wizard line got nixed also, so the budget line of single shot, easy swap long guns is pretty much gone.
The appeal of the Handi was the idea of one receiver, many barrels, just like a T/C Encore or Contender, but at a lower price point.

I love my single shot 20 gauge, and wanted a Handi and barrels for 12 & 20 gauge, .223, and something like .44 magnum. I even found a .44 mag Handi locally at an LGS, but it didn't have the rifle frame, so .223 was out.

Anyway, I'm not a big hunter or bullseye/ target shooter, so the single shot concept only had so much appeal. Not enough even at the H&R price point to drive home the purchase. It's highly unlikely I'll get a T/C, the appeal just isn't there for me.

 

[mgmorden]

Because they are


And the answer is simple

On a bolt action the locking and firing mechanism is inline with the bore and direction bullets travel.

Break action single shots are off axis with these parts.

Any minute play in the system is amplified 2' away at the muzzle which happens to be attached to the moving parts of the locking mechanism on these single shots. On a bolt action the only thing that has to move is the bolt and it does so independently of the muzzle.

All that is indeed true - also factor with Handi's is the attachment method of the forearm. In a bolt action you can free-float the barrel. With a Handi you might be able to sand away SOME of the stock, but it's still got a fixed anchor point.

Any pressure put on the barrel of a rifle can affect point of impact. Being able to have the stock attached to the action and not actually touching the barrel tends to remove the possibility of the stock exerting variable pressure on the barrel when firing.

This generally won't affect things to the point that a rifle isn't huntable. Heck 3" groups are fine for most hunting. However, if you're just looking for best accuracy, break actions simply aren't optimal in most cases. The average shooter has always been better off with a bolt action - its just that until recently that meant spending a lot more money. That's no longer the case.

IMHO about the only area where break actions truly shine is in muzzleloaders, and it's hard to compete price-wise with CVA.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

Does anyone think that H&R will import some foreign single shots to get the price down? Kinda like how most "American" companies have foreign originated pieces for their entry level budget lines?

 

[R.W.Dale]

Does anyone think that H&R will import some foreign single shots to get the price down? Kinda like how most "American" companies have foreign originated pieces for their entry level budget lines?

No

Remington already tried that and it was a huge FLOP

 

[Cee Zee]

Actually H&R has already been importing firearms from China but they're all shotguns. Most carry the name NEF but as we all know that's the same company (also the same as Marlin and Remington for that matter but H&R and NEF have been associated for a good while). And some do carry the name H&R.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/12/ralph/gun-review-hr-1871-pardner-pump-protector-12-gauge/

The single shot "Topper" design is still made in the US though AFAIK.

the average bolt gun will be more accurate than the average single shot, due to simple mechanics

That would certainly be true of the break down single shot rifles but there are single shot bolt action rifles too. I don't mean to split hairs but I just think it should be pointed out. Single shot, bolt action rifles can often be the most accurate of all choices. But you're certainly right that break down single shot rifles aren't going to be as accurate as a bolt action rifle as a rule. Some have speculated that a perfect breakdown might be just as accurate as a messed bolt action but the thing is a breakdown wears on that hinge pin over time and what accuracy they have at first goes away pretty soon. There's a lot of weight riding on that pivot point and the tolerances for a really good shooter are very, very small. So even 1/1000th of an inch can affect accuracy. There's more to being accurate than a good barrel and chamber. The firing pin has to strike the bullet right too. A bad operating firing pin setup can make the cartridge move just as it's fired. And with a breakdown rifle there is more room to move around. Absolutely a bolt action is a more accurate design. It isn't even close really.

 

[Elkins45]

Go over to Greybeard's forums and go under the HR Centerfire Rifle forum and you'll find many folks who like these firearms and are sorry to see them go.

Yes, but you'll also find a bunch of stickies on how to fix the triggers, forends, etc. Most of those guys are true guncranks who love to tinker with stuff and enjoy a good challenge.

That's not a knock--I will miss them too. But the cheap bolt guns stole their market.

 

[Cee Zee]

Just for the record I'm NOT knocking those rifles. They have served a purpose for a long, long time. Again the average Joe that needed a bear stopper could afford a Handi Rifle that would do the job. Let's look at some prices. Here's a nice .45-70 Handi Rifle. The price is $309. You just can't buy that kind of power anywhere for that kind of money. For comparison let's look at a Marlin lever gun that fires the same cartridge. The Marlin 1895 lever action .45-70 sells for $619 on the same site. If you need a brown bear stopper that's easy to carry and inexpesive then the Handi Rifle has always been a good choice. You have to pay for that lever action feeding mechanism and it adds weight to the rifle. That may seem like a good idea if you want to plink but the .45-70 is not really a good choice for that. It's a rifle you keep to protect yourself from large predators or to hunt those same predators. And a lot more people can afford the Handi Rifle than can afford the Marlin.

I hate to see them go to be honest. I like having tools available that will do the job and won't break the bank. I like my quality, showcase rifles too but a person needs certain things if they live a certain way. And a big bore rifle can be one of those things a person needs and the Handi Rifle makes them affordable for almost everyone. If you can't afford a $300 rifle you probably shouldn't be living in brown bear country to be honest.

 

[Elkins45]

If you can't afford a $300 rifle you probably shouldn't be living in brown bear country to be honest.

Or at least you shouldn't venture outside!

 

[R.W.Dale]

A 12ga mossberg 500 trumps the single shot HAMMER fired handi in 45/70 in theory AND in the real world. In power, capacity and price.

Who in the world would rely on a single shot for personal bear defense in bear country. That is literally one shot past deciding "meh I don't need a gun"

 

[Cee Zee]

Who in the world would rely on a single shot for personal bear defense in bear country.

Most people don't think they will have time for a second shot with a long gun. Bears move mighty fast and most people want to take their shot when the bear is close so they have less risk of missing. That's the story I've heard anyway. Personally I carry a 12 ga. 870 with Brenneke Black Magic slugs. But there are no brown bears here except in the odd zoo or on some weirdo's farm.

I do know that most people use a 12 ga. for protection in brown bear country but not all. And it is not true that a 12 ga. can produce more power than a .45-70. They can come close but not quite. Plus with a rifle you get the ability to shoot at long distances while even a sabot is limited to about 200 yards and it has nowhere near enough energy to kill dangerous game at that distance. You can kill a bull moose at 300-400 yards with a .45-70 and the right loads. You can't do that with a shotgun.

I certainly didn't say that a big bore rifle was the only choice for bear protection anyway. It is an option that some might find attractive because it can be used for long range hunting.

 

[Duckdog]

Uncountable numbers of buffalo were dropped at long range with 45/70 single shots. The 45/70 has nothing to prove. Buffalo are not wimps either. Undoubtedly, shot placement trumps theory.

 

[Davek1977]

It has "nothing to prove" indeed, but its hardly optimal for most applications. As pointed out, as bear medicine, I'd much rather have a pump action 12 gauge and several backup shots as opposed to betting my entire existence that one 45/70 round will trump any situation I find myself in. The 30/30 has "nothing to prove" as a deer round either, but few would argue its the best fit for long-range precision shooting. Having nothing to prove, and being the best tool for the job, are rarely one and the same.

 

[Cee Zee]

Again a second shot is pretty rare against a charging bear. They close on you very fast and if you're smart you save your shot until you can make it accurately. From 50 yards out a bear charging at full speed will be on you in less than 4 seconds. And shooting a bear outside of 50 yards and claiming it was charging you is not really going to to float when the game warden comes along. So unless you can fire your pump accurate at 50 yards then pump it, aim it and fire it again in about 3 seconds you will not get off a second shot. Humans can cover 50 yards in less than 5 seconds. And bears are MUCH faster. And the chances of hitting a bear at 50 yards in a spot that will kill it when that bear is charging you are slim. So it's best to wait until they are about 20 yards from you.

Talk to some of the people on this board who have faced charging bears. I'm not saying a person would "never" get off a second shot but there are certainly people who would choose to carry a rifle over a shotgun so they could hunt. And if you want to know why they ever made the choice of a Handi Rifle I guess you would have to ask them. But they most certainly have made that choice many times. Obviously the number of people making that choice has dropped off but the single shot Topper has been a classic for a very long time and people have used it for bear protection many, many times. Sitting 1000 miles away second guessing their choices is not something I'm going to do. I didn't make this up. I know it happens that people choose the Handi Rifle for hunting and protection and have for a long time. I didn't say it was the optimal choice. It probably isn't. But it's a choice. Personally if I'm ever charged by a bear I hope to have a truck mounted 50 BMG that's full auto.

BTW if you want second shots so much there's always revolvers you can carry too. A revolver is something you can use on a bear that is mauling you at the time or at least sometimes when a bear is mauling you.

There are reasons to have a second shot available but they haven't been mentioned here. A warning shot can scare off a bear but it can also not do one thing to scare a bear. In that case you'd want a second shot. I've used firecrackers to scare off a bear that was ticked off I disturbed it from eating grain from my neighbors hog pen barrel. It wasn't backing down one bit and it was about 30 yards away and slowly moving closer. Just remembered that I kept those firecrackers in my building for just such an occasion. I never dreamed I'd actually have to use them but I did. Bears can be scared by loud noises. That is a good reason to have a second shot available. But I still contend that someone wanting to hunt large game and also have a measure of defense against a bear might well choose a Handi Rifle and they have been doing exactly that for a very long time. I'm sorry but that's just true. It's not my choice but I don't choose for other people and I'm pretty sure they don't need my help.

 

[Duckdog]

Well said Cee Zee. I am in the very crowd you discuss. I put meat in the freezer every year with my inadequate guns. I guess I have just been lucky for all these years. I think some would be surprised how fast those of us who choose to hunt with break actions can reload. I would venture to say it is as fast as most can cycle their bolt.

While some seem to think that H&R seemingly deserved this, I, and many others, do not. For those with that opinion, maybe all would be served by not telling those of us who liked them, how bad they are, every time a post is made in support of them.

American workers are loosing jobs because of this situation, and it's a downright shame. For those who want to pay large sums of money on a gun, have at it. I sincerely hope you have the skill to use that perceived added value, even though I feel there are very, very few who can truly take full advantage of it. Especially in hunting situations, besides resting their gun on sticks. For me, I'll stick with my cast bullets and break actions.

 

[kapie]

I don't think much about clips or magazines. Maybe magazine sounds too much like what i read when i'm sitting down in my library.
I feel bad hearing about anyone losing a job,or a factory closing down.Maybe H@R should have made all the rifles interchange on the same platform.All of them,So a stronger receiver.
I was raised with a single shot kind of thinking. Bolt action rifles were always expensive. I still think it comes down to a lack of skill. I think people need to use whatever they are fortunate enough to own and shoot it enough to be a good shot with it.
I think most surplus military rifles would bring in the meat.
For me there's something about a 45/70.

 

[mgmorden]

Well said Cee Zee. I am in the very crowd you discuss. I put meat in the freezer every year with my inadequate guns. I guess I have just been lucky for all these years. I think some would be surprised how fast those of us who choose to hunt with break actions can reload. I would venture to say it is as fast as most can cycle their bolt.

If you'll notice I actually said that the bolt action isn't much faster to cycle and that the Handi is still hunting-accurate (as I said above - I actually own one in .30-30). If you have one and it's working well for you then by all means continue to use and enjoy it.

What I'm saying (and what I think seems to be the majority opinion) is simply that if one is buying a new rifle today, there are better values.

Please notice the difference between "There are better rifles out there for the money." and "Your rifle is junk.". The two sentences are not equivalent. Trying to disprove the second is simply setting up a strawman as no one made that claim.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

While some seem to think that H&R seemingly deserved this, I, and many others, do not.

It has nothing to do with whether or not H&R "deserved" this. It's whether or not H&R was making a profit. With no profits, any business has to shut down.

 

[MrDig]

Funny Thing

I just this morning went to the H&R website and the only news regarding production was the fact that they moved from Massachusetts, and that they were dropping the NEF label. nothing about halting production or canceling the brand.
So I will ask is it possible this is all hooey?
Did someone misunderstand the news about dropping the NEF part of the name to mean dropping the production all together?
There is nothing but threads from various forums about this news, and no credible sources to verify the news. I will keep digging

 

[Duckdog]

"Please notice the difference between "There are better rifles out there for the money." and "Your rifle is junk.". The two sentences are not equivalent. Trying to disprove the second is simply setting up a strawman as no one made that claim."



I did not say "junk" Please notice I said inadequate. Those two are not necessarily equivalent. Maybe there are better in your eyes, but not a sure thing that someone else may see it completely different. Spend you money how you want. I'll spend mine how I see fit.

 

[Cee Zee]

I think some would be surprised how fast those of us who choose to hunt with break actions can reload. I would venture to say it is as fast as most can cycle their bolt.

I saw a guy that could knock down two clays thrown at the same time with a single shot H&R shotgun. They can most certainly be operated in a hurry if a person puts in the practice. Back when they were the primary gun for hunting quail in my area a lot of people were fast at loading and firing them. I only saw the one guy knock down two clays with a single shot in all the time we ran our trap range. I did hear lots of people claim they could do it.

 

[DPris]

Dig,
If you choose to maintain your own personal Head-In-Sand position, that's up to you.

The info I've given here is direct from a media contact rep in a position at the Remington (et al) plant at Ilion to both know & speak about the issue.

It's quite clear, and there was no room for misunderstanding.

Websites are rarely complete, frequently not up to date, and never the last word in what's going on with a given company.

The breaktops are winding down, aside from maintaining parts for some time to come (I specifically asked about that since I want to pick up spares for my Sportster & my nephew's 20-gauge Zombie Special).

If you feel I have no credibility, then there's no point in me saying anything else to you.
As far as your digging goes, have you tried calling & asking them?
Denis

 

[MrDig]

Dpris
I'm not keeping my head in the sand I'm looking for an official announcement from Cerebus, Reminigton, or H&R 1871.

I have yet to see one.

If I search the subject on multiple search engines all I get is Forum posts from various forums.
I'm not doubting you as a source, I'm saying they have made no official announcement.
Marlin Owners sites it as rumor gone wild but again there is no official statement its chatter on a forum.

 

[danez71]

From 50 yards out a bear charging at full speed will be on you in less than 4 seconds.

Its really more like 3 seconds. I say that to emphasize everything else you said.



But, why is it that so many threads end up in bear talk? I really doubt the demise of the gun was caused by anything remotely relating to bears.